This interview was originally recorded on August 18, 2023, as part of Leoni Consulting Group’s All Things Marketing and Education Podcast.
Access this episode's show notes, including links to the audio, a summary, and helpful resources.
Elana Leoni:
Hello and welcome to All Things Marketing And Education. My name is Elana Leoni and I've devoted my career to helping education brands build their brand awareness and engagement. Each week I sit down with educators, EdTech entrepreneurs, and experts in educational marketing and community building. All of them will share their successes and failures using social media, inbound marketing, or content marketing, and community building. I'm excited to guide you on your journey to transform your marketing efforts into something that provides consistent value and ultimately improves the lives of your audience. And now let's jump right into today's episode.
Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of All Things Marketing And Education. This episode I got to sit down with Ian McCullough. He is the Director of Marketing for Global Campaigns at Turnitin. And Ian isn't your typical Director of Marketing. You can tell immediately that this man comes from Broadway. He has a boisterous voice, he is passionate about education in his job, and he's just a funny human. A side note of how I know Ian is I met him through a mutual friend in the Haas Business School where I got my MBA, Monica Brown. So we talk about her a little bit and it's just fun to be able to have these lighthearted conversations, but really dive deep into things that are quite timely. And with Ian in particular, we talk about ChatGPT and AI writing, and specifically how do we deal and navigate with all of these tools and tech innovation in the world of academic integrity and plagiarism.
So he dives into all the nooks and crannies around that. If you're an educator, this is an interesting one because he talks about a little bit of where plagiarism came from, and some tips and tricks to understand is this plagiarized or not. So lots of fun things to unpack in here. But before we get into the episode, a little bit more about Ian. So Ian McCullough has built a 20 plus year career in educational and creative technology. He has been in consumer marketing, corporate training, institutional market. He's led the North American K-12 marketing team as the academic integrity leader for Turnitin for the past five years. And this year, he has seen his team's scope expand to bring greater focus to serve secondary institutions globally. I always am curious about leaders that are expanding EdTech in a global perspective too, and he brings a little bit of that in the episode. So enjoy this episode about all things ChatGPT, AI writing, and academic integrity. Welcome Ian to All Things Marketing And Education, we're excited to have you on.
Ian McCullough:
Thanks, Elana. A pleasure to be here. It was great having lunch with you the other week. Great seeing you at ISTE and really excited to be able to chat with you and everyone else who's listening in.
Elana Leoni:
Yeah, I will have to say that the one thing that... There's so many things that keep me in EdTech, but the thing that warms my heart is just how collaborative we are and friendly. And you got a random intro from a beautiful human of ours in common, Monica Brown, and she said, "Ian, you should meet Elana. Elana, you should meet Ian." And just on that knowledge we had [inaudible 00:03:41]-
Ian McCullough:
Yeah, well Monica and I collaborated. So we're talking about that 20-year career. I consider the backbone of my career of LeapFrog toys, which is not only where I met Monica, but where I met my wife Laura, who was Monica's quad mate. So Monica has quite literally followed me for quite some time. And as I was making a career transition from product development and supply chain and various other pieces and started contracting and taking on more marketing projects, it was none other than Monica Brown who brought me back to Leapfrog and brought me into a product marketing role, and really played a key part in that transition. And so yeah, if Monica introduces someone to me, of course I'm taking the call.
Elana Leoni:
And a proper lunch now we're post-pandemic. I was like, "Yes, I want to see some human." And we had a good conversation. I think life is really for me summed up based on connections. There's certain amount of timing in your career and luck, but it's who you surround yourself with, how open you are, and how selfless you are to also introduce other people to connections. There's [inaudible 00:04:51]-
Ian McCullough:
Amongst my other accomplishments, I was a member of the pilot class of Carnegie Mellon University's Master of Entertainment Technology Program. And being the first through anything, I feel a certain responsibility to students who have come through since, that program is celebrating its 25th a year, but they routinely make trips out to the West Coast and do an LA and San Francisco Bay area visit. And one of the points that I make to them, and as far as the professional side of it is that there are words... Especially for those of us who do this, anybody who spends any time on LinkedIn, when we talk about networking and selling, they become these really loaded emotionally kind of fraught words. And the point that I make to the students based on my experience is when we talk about networking and self-promotion and selling your services, having that sort of mindset, all we're really saying is, "Make friends and make fair trades."
So networking is just a really... An adult professional code word for make friends. And then when you have to make a case for yourself, whether it's a job interview or you're working as a contractor consultant and you have to highlight your value, it's make fair trades for your time. And then just go Robert Fulgham on it because kindergartners can make friends and make fair trades. And so the more that we unload it and approach it with the spirit that you just highlighted, yeah. So it's a pleasure to have become your friend, Elana.
Elana Leoni:
Yeah, same. And I would say that people describe me as this... I'm most proud of my superpower being I find joy in connecting other people. I'm a connector. I thrived in the connected educator movement of being able to have this wonderful world of social media and connect with people all around the world doing innovative things in education. It's full circle with creative professionals such as yourself. Now, let's dive into ChatGPT, AI writing, plagiarism, you are in the thick of it when it comes in your [inaudible 00:07:06], in your company, Turnitin. Let's back up before ChatGPT and specific in AI, let's just talk about the evolution of plagiarism. I think it would be interesting from an EdTech professional standpoint, but also from teachers, they're probably tuning in and going, "You know, this is a problem for me, but I don't know where it started. I have never thought about it or how it's evolved."
Ian McCullough:
In terms of... It depends on how far back we want to rewind the clock. We're going for a 20-minute episode and I could take two hours going into the history here where we can trace back to Ancient Greece, we can trace back to the enlightenment, where fundamentally and really coming out of what we have historically referred to as the European Enlightenment, or at least that's how it's headlined in most history. Fundamentally at the heart of it is this need to advance humanity through original thought. And so when people are thinking originally, then human society advances, there is progress. However, when people are in a position to take expressions of ideas or ideas that have already been expressed and claim them as their own, that's a problem for all of us, where that stunts the growth of humanity. And where things start to get really into the educational sphere, plagiarism has been a concern in academia for centuries.
It was really at the dawn of the internet that we started getting into the barriers to doing so becoming that much easier and more tempting. And especially in the K-12 space, a lot of it is... There's a confluence of social factors that's really worth digging into because it also ties into social media as well where we talk remixes and memes and how do things go viral? Well, you do trace back and there is sources of ideas and there's a balance between cultural evolution and credit where credit is due. And if we have to look at the history in terms of academic plagiarism over the past 25 years and where Turnitin comes to it, the easiest thing to point to as a precursor step would be Wikipedia. Where if we think about this from the point of view of a student who has an assignment due the next day, it's always the next day. That's that time dependent story that always comes into any EdTech conversation.
And they're up against a wall and they're exhausted and it's really just tempting to copy and paste from a webpage [inaudible 00:10:02]. Wikipedia being the classic example. And then you just present it, you just turn in the paper and you get through the assignment. And that sort of copy and paste plagiarism is really where Turnitin, which we're celebrating our 25th birthday this year, started to gain traction. So Turnitin's history as an organization, Turnitin was founded in 1998 by a couple of teachers at the University of California Berkeley who actually started as a peer review tool.
Elana Leoni:
[inaudible 00:10:34] Bears, I didn't know that.
Ian McCullough:
Yeah, no. Turnitin has multiple ties to Berkeley, so we'll get into that in a little bit as well. But it was founded out at Berkeley and the founding generation, John and Christian and we celebrate our founder's day, they really tried to build a peer review tool that just made handling peer feedback easier. And what they learned really quickly is they put this tool out there, but a lot of student assignments had an awful lot in common. And so two years after that, they introduced the original originality check service that Turnitin has become synonymous with for any student who's graduated over the past two decades or so. Where having tools out there that can rapidly match up against an array of sources, paywall journals, other student papers, tens of billions of internet articles both current and archived, that became a value to teacher. And having something that as they evaluate whether or not students are actually doing the thinking required for learning, having the ability to do so at scale and somewhat concrete.
Where things get interesting, we'll get into this in the ChatGPT conversation is, in an ideal case, depending on how large the instructional environment is, it's really hard in an 800 person college lecture hall for the professor to know the voice of every student. TAs better off, but TAs also have less teaching experience. In the K-12 environment, I get to work with educators who can know and feel when something's off, but it gets really hard to have a conversation about it and have a teachable moment if you can't [inaudible 00:12:31] to it and say, "Here is the issue I [inaudible 00:12:33]." And so when we look at a tool like Turnitin, it becomes a diagnostic tool so that teachers can intervene. Where at the end of the day what matters, and what gets me out of bed in the morning is that you have students who have any number of struggles where this may have been a choice that they [inaudible 00:12:51]. And less often than you would expect, it's not mal-intent where students are necessarily trying to get away with something for the sake of getting away with something.
It's an incredibly stressful world where there's pressure and confusion and the expectations are ever shifting. And educators need tools to identify where there's an issue so that they can sit down and help a student with that. And certainly that's the case in secondary, and the position of turn it in, we firmly believe that that should be the case in higher education as well. But we also recognize that in higher education, the consequences for intentional academic misconduct can get really serious really fast. So some of something that I take a lot of satisfaction in working in the secondary business on is being able to work with institutions to set the skills earlier so that students can thrive later on in their career.
Elana Leoni:
You said all sorts of good things. I know that humans only have the attention span of a goldfish rather than... If they're even listening in [inaudible 00:13:58] the car. So let me recap what you said, and I'm going to potentially oversimplify and you're going to correct me. But you brought plagiarism back to the days of Socrates and I love it because you got bigger and said this is how we advance humanity. If we keep using... If there's plagiarism, you're doing a setback and gosh, I never would've thought that. So thank you for this philosophical angle.
Then you said, "Well a lot of the times when they were evolving this product, it was really a cut and paste type of plagiarism." So I found something cut and pasted, it might've been back in the day when we're going into the Encyclopedia Britannica's for those of us that enjoyed the physical encyclopedias. Then it went to Wikipedia and all those sources of cut and paste plagiarism. So why don't you take me to now we've got AI, we've got ChatGPT, [inaudible 00:14:50] complicated the world of K-12 and higher education as it relates to original thought to progress humanity as you so boldly and nicely talked about?
Ian McCullough:
I have the benefit of working with really smart people who pay attention to what's going on. And so we have to look at the release of ChatGPT as a milestone event last November, late last November. However, OpenAI has existed since 2016. The GPT language model technology underlying all of it... Actually really I think GPT-3 got released in 2020, so it's been around for a while. And our AI innovation lab has been looking at this for several years. And so when we talk and really fast-forward to the present, Turnitin was very well-equipped to deal with this new challenge where tools were popping up in generative AI. And maybe you remember last year there was a lot of stuff about AI generated art starting right about this year, 12 months. There've been tools that use this, Jasper as an example, that have been out there for a while and people would pay for the services and have been getting better.
And then ChatGPT comes out, where OpenAI releases itself, where all of the sudden as a showcase for what this technology is capable of, they put ChatGPT out there and suddenly it's free, it's simple, and it's amazing. And so I brought up Wikipedia earlier and there's multiple types of large language models, but ChatGPT is the definitive place that people are going. And the challenge in terms of helping educators identify when students are or aren't doing the work, and then asking why. Why is really important. It is one thing for Turnitin to be able to have huge student paper database of all of the papers that have been submitted to Turnitin and a global student paper database where we can crosscheck.
We have our own proprietary search engine, we have relationships to have access to paywall journals, that at the end of the day is if we can find matching texts, we can present the matching texts and the teacher can say, "That doesn't look like it should be the way it is." It's a little bit more... It's a lot more sophisticated than that. In the case of generative AI, the educational challenge is that in essence what a large language model is generating has never been published, it's unique.
Elana Leoni:
Do you feel [inaudible 00:17:42] it is unique, it's still moving along humanity as you said?
Ian McCullough:
Well, the challenge on that one is who's doing the thinking? So philosophically on this, at some point the advancement of humanity requires human thought and action and AI is moving forward. We're not at a point yet where AI themselves are sentient. And I think one of the things that we need to be clear about this current generation of large language models, which is people far smarter and that I have been very clear on is, when you go to ChatGPT, it doesn't know any [inaudible 00:18:21]. And that's a common kind of popular misconception where if [inaudible 00:18:26] and ask ChatGPT for an answer, what ChatGPT does is it has its trillions of tokens and it's astoundingly good figuring out what's the next most likely thing in response to the prompt.
But it doesn't know anything and it's not thinking anything about the information, it doesn't have that concept. So in terms of advancing humanity and original thought, I think that the people who are thinking about how to build large language models, that is absolutely advancing humanity and advancing thought, and I think that that's worthy a lot of scrutiny. But in the case of a student who submits the prompt that their teacher handed them and gets five paragraphs of text and then submits that as their own, for whatever reason that is, I think that's something worthy of intervention because the student hasn't internalized any of that information. And there's the broader community and social impact, but they're just shortchanging themselves in their own education at this point.
And one of my caveats to educators to pass along to students is if you are using this technology to take shortcuts... There's multiple ways to look at the purpose of education. On one hand, we can take the humanistic point of view about well-rounded human beings. On the other hand, we have to have the economic conversation. And from an economic point of view where there are lots of people who are motivated to get an education because they want a better job, if you are using a large language model to generate your work and not developing the skills, that large language model will do the job that you think you're going to be able to get a credential for, cheaper than you can. And so students today have a challenge where the jobs of tomorrow, it's all evolving so rapidly.
And so for teachers, it's in the student best interest to identify that and know that something's going on, and sit down and have that talk about what are the real consequences here, both in terms of academic norms and standards for potential higher education career, whether that is trade school, professional school, or Bachelor's, Master's. And then getting into the world where you can just see all of the headlines of all of these major companies that are rushing to adopt AI technology as quickly as they can. And so if AI cannot think at this point, cannot generate original thought, that's something that students should be really focused on making sure that they have those muscles well-developed.
Elana Leoni:
Yes, and I can't imagine the retention of knowledge is superior to somebody just becoming good at prompt engineering. Like, "Oh, okay, I'll get these prompts five times in a row, I can get something and then maybe copy and paste it," and then we're in a different type of copy and paste plagiarism for sure.
Ian McCullough:
Yeah. No, it is. Well, I think the evolution of the academic norms around large language models is there are matters to be settled. There's huge legal questions around the use of training data. Saw an article this morning in Ars Technica about a potential lawsuit from the New York Times towards open AI based on asserting copyright infringement because of the use of New York Times articles in the training [inaudible 00:22:07] potential use. And when we look at that original proposition that ideas and expression of ideas have value, there are matters around this in relation to that proposal that are being tested in a number of ways already. There's the high profile strikes for the Writer's Guild of America and the Screen Actor's Guild, SAG AFTRA in terms of Hollywood production where one of concerns that have that has been a part of the strike is writers don't want their scripts used for training data and putting them out of a job.
And so this idea ownership is pretty crucial. Then we get into the piece here of since it exists, what's the bare minimum student's should do? And the one thing that seems to be a consensus point, if nothing else, first and foremost, teachers, you should have clear academic integrity policies, honor codes, however you want to talk about that. But the bare minimum best practice that seems to have emerged over the past several months is if students are using ChatGPT, cite it as a source so that you can trace [inaudible 00:23:24] and have that conversation. And the simple thing, when we look at where Turnitin has been of service over the past 25 years and students go to... There's all sorts of articles out there about how to trick Turnitin, and it's almost an annual ritual of writing the counter blog post up [inaudible 00:23:46] those articles because we can't identify those particular things. And the harder you try to just not do the work, you might as well put the energy into doing the work.
Elana Leoni:
Slightly ironic, right?
Ian McCullough:
Yeah. And it's slightly ironic when the key to all of it is when we look at original thought and coming back to that, all original thought is built up thoughts that have come before. Human progress is built on ideas that have come before, cite your sources, that's the magic thing there. Where understand the building block blocks that you're using in your new ideas and recognize them in your work. And for the time being, there's a lot to sort out on the ChatGPT question. But a lot of institutions as a bare minimum if students are using ChatGPT, like, okay, there's value there, cite it.
Elana Leoni:
Yeah. So I know we could talk about this forever. I'm going to ask you a couple more questions-
Ian McCullough:
[inaudible 00:24:40].
Elana Leoni:
And then we will give your audience ways to talk to you, get in touch with Turnitin as well. But when I started my career in education, I remember at [inaudible 00:24:52] Utopia, I went to our website and our mission and it said... George was really clear about, I don't care if any student can go to... At the time it was the internet, it was that copy and paste. If they can Google it, we should be aware of it and potentially leverage it, but we should help enable educators to go beyond the Googling. And now we're seeing this conversation come around, around the emphasis on critical thinking and being able to create assignments beyond the copy and paste. And I remember I sent you a quote from somebody I admire in my educator PLN Alec Couros and he's been putting this on LinkedIn and Twitter, but his quote was, "The news is really filled with stories of professors boasting about catching students who've submitted AI generated assignment."
Like, I gotcha type of vibe. But he's saying, "Gosh, why aren't we talking about people boasting about how they've altered assessment strategies? Or gotten to the heart of why students cheat in the first place?" And that still gives me goosebumps because that's ultimately... The technology is going to evolve over and over. Before George was like, "Hey, Google exists. Let's not reinvent the wheel. Let's leverage. Let's leverage phones that are now the power of computers in a kid's pocket. Let's move it and continue on." But how do we move the critical sinking needle? And at the same time really get to the heart of why. Sometimes when kids are acting out or cheating, there's a deeper reason too. So any thoughts around that? Because I know educators are like, "How do I even... If I don't use Turnitin, how do I catch students from cheating now that there's multiple ways?"
Ian McCullough:
So first and foremost, Turnitin, we provide tools and services, but we also make free resources for educators available. And I will send you the link to the page full of resources we have for educators on how do you redo your assignments? How do you take a look at this? How should you look at your classroom and institutional academic integrity policy so that you can set good expectations, make it so that prompt you've been using for 20 years requires more of the student. And that you are actually upping the level of challenge. And how to have conversation. And those are things that we make freely available to everyone.
We have a wide range of instructional resource packs to that. I think something that we were very excited about... The resource pack we were very excited about in terms several years ago in the lead up... Just in the general politics around the 2020 election, we have a source credibility pack where the nature of fake news and reliable sources was a general topic, and we put together a source credibility pack, which once again in the era of large language models comes back into play.
So I'll send you the link for that too because that's also pulled in. But the academic integrity in the age of AI resource pack really gives educators a lot to start with and think about how they are introducing these topics to students, how they are adjusting their prompts and assignments, and taking a different view of assessment given that these things do exist, and they're not going anywhere. And this is a part of the world that today's students are growing up into. And then in the case of many higher education students, today's adults are seeking support on for continued education. So no, we can't ignore it. We can't pretend it doesn't exist. And there are plenty of appropriate uses out there. One of the first things that came up [inaudible 00:28:36] I value, which I can totally envision is for special education students, imagine being able to use ChatGPT as an accommodation for dyslexic students.
That sounds pretty valid to me. And so it isn't the case where it's all going to be misuse. There are cases where it could be perfectly appropriate, there could be cases where students should generate essays. I think that something that many educators have run too quickly is, "Wow, you can create exemplars all you want." If there's a topic that you're trying to get at and provide an example of, it's perfectly appropriate, as far as I'm concerned, for an educator to generate an essay from ChatGPT or a similar tool that has an issue that they want students to go find. We like saving educators time. But it's all so, so, so complicated and it's the question of how do we navigate the nuance? And where do we get the information so that people can know, it's a nuanced question.
Elana Leoni:
Yes. And for educators that are listening, we will put all of those resources in our show notes. We'll tell you the link of the show notes at the end of this episode. And shout out to some other educators that we'll put in the show notes as well that are talking about how teachers can use and leverage ChatGPT to be more efficient, to save them time. I think that's [inaudible 00:30:04]-
Ian McCullough:
[inaudible 00:30:05]-
Elana Leoni:
... Use but Monica Burns, Alice Keeler, there's so many out there right now. Holly Clark, they have book. I think it's such a fascinating conversation because even at ISTE I was talking to people and they had books that they just came out. I'm like, "How'd you write that book?" And some of them on the side whispered, "ChatGPT helped me with some of it." And so there's these ethical things of like, "Wow, okay, what is original? What great area is plagiarism?" Love how you frame ChatGPT as it really doesn't know anything. It's just like maybe this... I think of it like a hyper-good librarian who's trying to find stuff for you.
Ian McCullough:
The analogy that's most apt is at this point, lots and lots of people have smartphones, and most smartphones have auto complete features. And so essentially the fundamentals of what tools like ChatGPT are doing, it's auto complete at a much more massive scale. And that's it.
Elana Leoni:
Yeah, that's interesting.
Ian McCullough:
This has been evolving for a very long time technologically.
Elana Leoni:
Yes. So if you all are listening to this episode and you want to hear more from Ian about this, let us know in the reviews, reach out to us. We can certainly have a whole nother episode, deep dive on plagiarism, ChatGPT, AI, he's in the thick of it. He's surrounded by smart people. He is in turn a smart person thinking about this every day. And the last question we ask, it's not related to plagiarism, hopefully you're not going to plagiarize this answer. It's really about you. And you're like, "Quick, [inaudible 00:31:52]-"
Ian McCullough:
I work for an integrity company?
Elana Leoni:
We always ask people around how... What are the things that you do to keep up with life? What are the things that are inspiring to you? And in particular, I'd love to know if there's anything recently that you've read or watched that has inspired you. I want to tell marketers, EdTech professionals, and people every day in the classrooms that it's okay to be a human. And what are some things that are inspiring you beyond your day-to-day work?
Ian McCullough:
So the top-of-mind answer on this one is I just took a three-week vacation. And [inaudible 00:32:31] travel. Travel is absolutely the answer that comes to mind. And my wife, my now 11-year-old daughter and I, we took a Disney cruise from Southampton, England to Cherbourg, France. We saw Utah Beach and a bunch of the D-Day sites and then sailed to Reykjavik and sailed around Iceland and had a couple of port stops there, which that was the point, going places that you've never been. That's one of my big things in travel. Obviously I want to visit family and whatnot.
And the thing that I keep coming back to that has just filled me with awe and wonder is we were in Iceland in Reykjavik, as the volcanic eruptions are happening. We didn't go see the specific volcano, which I won't try to pronounce, but in Reykjavik they have a lava show that an organization put together and gotten the permits where they take the ash volcano that erupted like 100 years ago and they heat it up in a furnace and they put you in a room to actually experience what it's like to see and be near lava. And they have a whole great presentation about... And that's been the thing that's top of mind where that particular presentation and just the awesomeness of the earth and nature, that is absolutely the most recent refill of my [inaudible 00:34:00].
Elana Leoni:
And when you travel, it flips your whole world upside down. Sometimes we get in our routines whether we like it or not. When you're traveling, you are not in control of anything as much as you'd like to think so. And your senses... For me, my senses just go... And I get more curious about life and things, and I bring that back when I come [inaudible 00:34:21].
Ian McCullough:
It doesn't even have to be a European cruise. It's been a busy summer. So the aforementioned daughter, she's a child of the pandemic era, so there were a couple of years there where things were adoptions. We found a summer camp for her in Oregon. She's got some food allergy issues, so [inaudible 00:34:39] to find a very specific type of summer camp. And so we get back from the European cruise and then the opportunity to travel just beyond your own neighborhood. It doesn't have to be around the world, it can just be out of the boundaries of familiarity. Driving up the coast... Well, not really up the coast, driving up interstate five. Both Elana and are in the San Francisco Bay Area heading up I-5 with a stop in Shasta, which is just-
Elana Leoni:
Beautiful.
Ian McCullough:
A [inaudible 00:35:08] different place. And into Salem, Oregon having a lovely week there where we worked remotely. It's a change of perspective.
Elana Leoni:
Well, thank you, Ian for coming on and sharing everything you're doing. All of your knowledge. As soon as I met you, I'm like, "You've got to be on my podcast. You got to tell people what you are learning around [inaudible 00:35:28] ChatGPT, plagiarism," and it's changing every single day.
Ian McCullough:
Yeah, it is. It's been a really exciting year for me as someone who's ultimately a professional storyteller, to have this rich topic of interest to really explore and to have a great company to represent. I love working for Turnitin, and it's been a blessing.
Elana Leoni:
Awesome. Well, thank you again. For those of you listening, we will put all of the information in the show note. Thank you all for listening.
Elana Leoni, Host
Elana Leoni has dedicated the majority of her career to improving K-12 education. Prior to founding LCG, she spent eight years leading the marketing and community strategy for the George Lucas Educational Foundation, where she grew Edutopia’s social media presence exponentially to reach over 20 million education change-makers every month.
Ian McCullough, Guest
Ian McCullough has built a 20+ year career in educational and creative technology, with experience in consumer, corporate training, and institutional markets. He's led the North American K-12 marketing team at academic integrity leader Turnitin for the past five years, and this year has seen his team's scope expand to bring greater focus to serving secondary education institutions globally.
About All Things Marketing and Education
What if marketing was judged solely by the level of value it brings to its audience? Welcome to All Things Marketing and Education, a podcast that lives at the intersection of marketing and you guessed it, education. Each week, Elana Leoni, CEO of Leoni Consulting Group, highlights innovative social media marketing, community-building, and content marketing strategies that can significantly increase brand awareness, engagement, and revenue.
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