This interview was originally recorded on [date], as part of Leoni Consulting Group’s All Things Marketing and Education Podcast.
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[Start of recorded material 00:00:01]
Elana:
Hello, and welcome to All Things Marketing and Education. My name is Elana Leoni, and I've devoted my career to helping education brands build their brand awareness and engagement. Each week I sit down with educators, EdTech entrepreneurs, and experts in educational marketing and community building. All of them will share their successes and failures using social media, inbound marketing or content marketing, and community building. I'm excited to guide you on your journey to transform your marketing efforts into something that provides consistent value and ultimately improves the lives of your audience.
Hello everyone. Welcome to this week's episode of All Things Marketing and Education. Today I am so excited to sit down with Eman Haggag. She is the program manager/community manager/does all awesome things at Meta, and she works on a program called Nourished Teachers, and she'll be telling you a little bit more about that. But a little bit about Eman before we get started and into all the things. Before working as a program manager, Eman spent 15 years in the classroom. She was teaching, she was developing integrated content for STEM, for K-12. And before joining Meta just recently, she was an instructional coach that was helping educators meaningfully integrate tech into the learning journey.
And I love that she wrote that so intentionally in her bio, because when we talk about EdTech, we talk about meaningful use of EdTech, and not EdTech for EdTech shiny object syndrome's sake. So in this episode, we are going to be talking about all things community, how to build community, what is community, what does community look like in a team of educators? How do you start it? What are the challenges? All of the things around that. But she's also going to be talking about her unique role. So she transitioned from in the classroom to out of the classroom and not just out of the classroom, she transitioned to one of the biggest tech companies in the world.
So she's going to talk about that journey, and she'll have some tips for educators, what to expect if you're thinking about it or not, is it right for you? But on the EdTech side, what should you be doing to make sure that that transition goes well and that you're welcoming educators? And if you can't hire educators, how can you integrate educator voices? So whether you're an EdTech professional or an educator, this episode will have a lot for you, I promise. But before we get into those things, I just want to talk a little bit about Eman, slightly gush about you. This is where I get to embarrass my guests, Eman. But I have been absolutely blessed to work with you, Eman, I think for about a year now, right?
Eman:
Yeah, man. It's been a year. I can't believe how --
Elana:
It feels longer in a good way.
Eman:
Yeah, it does.
Elana:
My team at LCG has worked with Meta for over four years, and one of our projects involves building up a community of educators on Facebook Groups called Nourished Teachers. And Eman will talk all about that, but I just want to give a shout-out to you, Eman, because I've known a lot of educators that have done this transition, and I know that you probably from your internal critic, you're like, "Oh Lord, it is hard. It is hard." But you have done it so well. You're funny, you're smart. You have that teacher voice when you come in still and you conduct meetings sometimes, and I'm like, "This is cool. I'm in Eman's class. Cool." And you roll up your sleeves when things get challenging, which I love.
And with all of the educators that I admire, you are a lifelong learner. You are curious, you're like, "I don't know, but I'm going to jump into it." It's not like you were a community manager before you got into this role, too. So being able to just dive in and say, "I'm going to learn it, tell me more," is super, it's just something that I love in people. I search for people on my team that have those characteristics.
Eman:
Sorry.
Elana:
It's okay. Let's get into it. I just want to formally welcome you, Eman, to All Things Marketing and Education, and I'm just so glad that you said yes to come on.
Eman:
Thank you. It was not easy, but you know what? Let's do it. Let's jump into it and see how this rolls out. And thank you for the introduction. That made me feel very good.
Elana:
Yay. And sometimes, when I first started this podcast, I was freaking scared. I was really scared. I was like, "I don't like my voice. I don't want to see myself on screen." All of those critical things. But you have to do things that make you scared. And I would say that having a podcast is one of the things that gives me one of the most joys in my job because I get to learn. My job is to learn from awesome, inspiring people and then share it out.
Eman:
I like the format of podcasts too, because it accesses a different type of person, someone that listens. I think that that's so important. That's how I learned, at least. I like to listen.
Elana:
We get to dive into deep conversation we normally wouldn't get to, which I love. Let's start with your journey. You transitioned from in the classroom to Meta. Let's start to the educators listening. I know there are a lot of educators listening, and they go, "Wow, how did she do that? And when did she know it was time to leave?" Maybe let's start there, and you just talk about your experience a little bit.
Eman:
For sure. I love teaching. I love teaching. I think about it even today in my role at Meta, where I'm like, "Man, I miss that feeling of being in the classroom and being able to innovate and create and work." In my case, most recently with middle school students and with STEM. And that was just so beautiful. And I know it's in the cards for me. I know that it's something that I will always gladly jump into. But for myself transitioning out of the classroom, it was never this moment of, "I need to get out, I need to get out. Right now, I'm feeling burnt out." Because the reality is, unfortunately, a couple of times throughout the year, I was getting burned out. And I'm sure a lot of teachers could relate to that with just the environment that we're in.
Certain periods of the year, I guess it was October or February or when you have to start writing all of your 8th graders recommendations, you just start to feel really burnt out. But honestly, it wasn't because of that. For me, it was always about how much impact I am able to have. And though I was in the classroom for 15 years, my journey in those 15 years was kind of wild. I taught in about six different states. I taught abroad, and I taught in about every type of school you can imagine, public school, private school, charter school, Islamic school, all girls, all boys. I even taught at a startup school, which was very interesting when I moved to California.
But I was always looking for, how can I make that impact? And at a certain point, I think it was my last year before I left, I stumbled randomly upon competency-based learning. And that was something that honestly I'd never heard about before. But it was so interesting to me, because I felt like I was doing those things without having the vocabulary for it. And this is a theme that you're going to notice for me, especially entering into the EdTech space. I do things, and I don't have the vocabulary for it until I stumble upon it and I'm like, "Oh my God, there's a community of people that are doing the same thing." So for me, it was competency-based learning.
I delved into that and then I realized, "Oh my goodness, if we're meeting learners where they are, and we're organizing this curriculum or this experience really grounded in community, what would that look like to have that with teachers?" And that was my impetus. I was like, "You know what, this is going to be scary. I've never exclusively worked with adults before, because I'm a middle school teacher." You are by default kind of weird. But I jumped out, and I didn't know what I was getting into. I'm going to be completely honest with you, but it ended up being beautiful.
Elana:
I think that that's good that you, you've differentiated that you weren't burnt out, because sometimes I ask guests where there's signals, and like you said, there's ebbs and flows throughout the year where you have levels of burnout, just the profession. But as you decided to get the courage up to put your resume in and you then got the call and they said, "Yes, come to Meta." What were the biggest hurdles you had to, or maybe adjustments you had to make as an educator? Because it's almost like talking two different languages at times. I've noticed when educators join, they may say something, and then the tech person, especially in big companies, you have lots of acronyms. You have lots of procedures.
Eman:
Correct. And that goes back to that theme I was talking about, about using a certain vocabulary and understanding the translation between both of them, if that makes any sense. For example, a really big word that I use all the time nowadays is stakeholders. I never used that word as a teacher, but when you think about your audience or your learners or your members, those are stakeholders. Just as an example. And so for myself, one of the biggest, or one of the most difficult things to do was to take my experiences, take my resume, take my classroom experiences, and translate it into a language that was fit for a company like Meta, for example.
And so, what that looks like is really cleaning up your LinkedIn, really looking into your Twitter account and seeing what is it that I follow? What is it that I put out there? Do I have a portfolio? What's the portfolio platform on? And really spending time with people that are not in the classroom, looking at their examples to make sure that your skills can translate over. Because the reality is, as a teacher, you have all of those skills, literally every single one of those powerful skills. You just have to put it in that language. And that for me was a big hurdle. But once I got through it, then it was just a matter of tweaking it along the way.
Elana:
If you don't know how to do that, how did you get help? I'm just trying to think about if you developed STEM curriculum and implemented it and taught it across the district, how would we translate that where Meta's like, "I'm looking for that skill"?
Eman:
That's a really good question. So, for me, I intentionally ran my materials by people that were not in the classroom and people that were in EdTech spaces or people that were in big companies to be like, "Does this make sense to you?" And oftentimes it's true. They would look at it and be like, "What does that mean if you scaffolded or differentiated, dah, dah, dah?" And I would have to sit back and explain to them exactly what I'm saying, because when you talk to a teacher, they're like, "Yeah." And so I would explain it to them, and then they would help me put it in that language. Or even examples of, for me, things that I never thought were that big of a deal, but because of the profession that we're in, everybody does it. For someone else it's huge.
For example, community building. I did a lot of work of community building with my students. And to me, it was just something you do. You just do that because you want to have a beautiful classroom environment. When you explain that to someone and break it down, first I make this plan, then I intentionally do this, then I incorporate it in this lesson. They're like, "Put that on paper." These are skills that people really benefit from.
Elana:
It's funny because there's jargon on both sides. I remember in a meeting where me and a colleague, Steve Dembo, he and I dropped the FEMER model, and we just assumed that people knew about it, and people's faces were a little bit blank in the room, but in a curious way. And I thought we got too jargony. And they're like, "No, no, tell us more. This is interesting." But it was just, if they saw it on paper, they wouldn't have any idea what I'm talking about. They would probably think it was a typo. Right? So you got your resume, you got people to look at it, you applied. When you jumped into the role itself, I'd love for you to explain maybe some of the adjustments you had to make because, for educators that are thinking about doing this, is it right for them? Are they willing to make those adjustments? That might be helpful, I think.
Eman:
Yeah. Yeah. So for me, I think one of the biggest adjustments for me to make was, it's going to sound strange, but I had to learn how to speed up exponentially but also slow down. And I know that's a contrast, but when I say that, I mean when you work in a school system, there are lots of things that are very predictable. There's a routine, there is an expectation throughout the year, there's an ebb and a flow depending on how the year goes. And until today, no matter what, Sunday is my scary day, the summer is like, woohoo, even though I'm working. There's just certain things. But because of that routine, I was able to go fast in my classroom because nobody could control that. I was able to make my curriculum, work with my students, so on and so forth.
When you're out of that environment and you're in this place like Meta, for example, it's not just you anymore, and you're constantly working with so many different types of people in a day. Like, I'm working with an engineer, and then I'm switching hats and I'm working with a program manager, and then I'm switching hats and I'm working with a data analyst, or so on and so forth. So when you step out of your comfort zone, you have to be willing to switch hats over and over and over again, with different languages. And that makes you slow down. That's just a reality. That makes you slow down a little bit and just listen. And so that would be the biggest thing that I learned. Just listen, listen, listen.
And of course working with adults exclusively is not working with students and parents, or even principals or any of that. It's a completely different world.
Elana:
I've seen the people around you change because of it. And for the EdTech people listening about what it would be like to bring in someone from in the classroom. Sure, there are some challenges, because you speak different vocabularies, and sure you might have different cultures in the beginning, but I have seen them be more attuned to what it is to be in K-12 education. I've seen them work more collaboratively and understand where you're coming from more and more, and it's baby steps, and it takes some time. But if you are a company servicing K-12 education, I can't imagine a better thing to do to make sure that your staff is attuned and collaborating with --
Eman:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And talking to them most, that period of listening pays off because you will spend some time listening, but once you're ready to start talking, they will listen. I've learned that multiple times. I've seen it multiple times, because you have a credibility that other people don't. That's just the reality. And they're willing to listen, and therefore it slows everything down a little bit, because to go a little bit more at the pace of what school systems are, which are slow, that's just the reality.
Elana:
I think about my experience working with lots of EdTech and the roles of educators coming in, versus the roles of executives that have very vast resumes in the tech world. And they all will give you information you need to make a decision, but none of that information trumps one or the other. They're all just giving you what you need to make a decision. And sometimes we have an inclination to think this information might be better than the other information or hold more weight. I think that's the biggest mistake I see sometimes in tech. Either they weigh the educator too much, or they weigh it not enough, but just weigh it amongst all the information and gather as much information as possible to make the best decision.
Eman:
Correct. Getting all the voices that you need. And I have to say, I see that in Nourished Teachers today, and I know we're going to talk about it later, but there is a balance, and I love that.
Elana:
Well, I think one last thing I'd ask about your transition is, I remember maybe your second call with us, and Porter who leads the community alongside you on our team, she said, "Eman, the one piece of advice I would give you," and you're nodding your head, "is..."
Eman:
I remember.
Elana:
"... try not to be an educator." I know that goes against everything we just said on this podcast, but what she meant is you as a community manager are now a community manager. You're no longer an instructional coach. And sometimes we put on our educator hat because it's what we're used to.
Eman:
Correct.
Elana:
But what does this new role require me to do? Right?
Eman:
Right. It was very interesting. I remember that day very clearly, because I believe that for myself, once an educator, always an educator. However, once an educator, always an educator, you are currently not a classroom teacher, and I happened to step out of the classroom literally right before the pandemic. So no matter what I say or what I do, I have no idea what the classroom was like from 2020 until today. And even though you may think you know, you are not living in it today. I think that was a very important distinction for me because when I do my community manager stuff in the Facebook group, your messaging is not, "Yeah, I know what you feel like, this is what happened to me." Your messaging is, "I see you and I hear you." Right?
And it's the same thing when you think about your students. We have all been students before, but I'm in a teacher role. When you're the classroom teacher, it's similar to the same kind of experience where you just have to understand what your role is now. And it gives you credibility and edge that you were a classroom teacher once that that's very helpful, but it's not who you are currently. And I think that's very humbling, honestly.
Elana:
It gave me goose bumps when you were talking, and I don't mean to sound, like, corny, but it did, because I've seen you grow in that arena. I remember you saying, "Well, as a teacher, I don't have anything to say, because I don't know." But I'm like, "As a community manager, you have something to say." And that transition of just owning it, and now I am so proud of what we've built together, this community of educators helping each other, supporting each other. I know we'll get into it. It's a bit of a cliffhanger. But while I jump, so we've talked a little bit about transitions. At the end of the episode, Eman's going to give her contact information, so if you have a question.
We also have another episode with Lily Jones, and she talks all about what it's like to make that move from in the classroom to out of the classroom. She also has a community called Educator Forever that helps people just create side hustles to get a little dip in the toe, dip in the toe, dip their toe in water to see if you even like it, because sometimes it's a real big chance to jump in full throttle and go, "Okay, I'm in it, let's go."
Eman:
Let's go. Yep.
Elana:
Having tasted, it's a different story. So let's jump into EdTech. The people that are listening are EdTech professionals, and I'm sure they'd love to hear from you now that you have one foot in tech. And even though we don't do a lot of EdTech at Meta, somewhat, but you also have your foot firmly in the educator area. I'm wondering if you had any advice to EdTech companies that can help ease the transition for educators. So whether it be, I think just hiring, for one, but then maybe tips to integrate educator voices when they can and get close to the people that they're trying to sell to and help.
Eman:
I think that's an awesome question. The first thing that I would say is, for my transition, it's interesting when you think about my transition, because I was in education and now I'm in tech, but to get there I had to walk through the EdTech. Does that make sense?
Elana:
Yes.
Eman:
I'm still in there. Even prior to my role at Meta, there was an EdTech role, there was instructional coaching, but in order to make that walk, I think, as an educator myself, I had to understand what EdTech means. I feel like that's very important. EdTech companies, if you are hiring educators or you want to ease a transition, ask them what they think it means, and then define for them what does it mean to be an EdTech. I think a part of that is super important, because, myself, I remember I needed a little bit of time, and I needed a little bit of resources to understand what it was that was happening so that I could take the skills that I already have and translate it into my new role.
And that goes back to that thing that I was talking to you about vocabulary, that new vocabulary, it was a steep learning curve for me. Learners can be clients, for example, a strategy document is like a curriculum plan, so on and so forth. I needed that time and space to be like, "The skills are transferrable. It's just a different environment." That's one thing that I would think. And then in terms of the educator voices, I was reflecting on that a lot, actually. I actually love what LCG does. I'm going to be completely transparent with you guys. What you do is so beautiful in meaningfully incorporating the educator voice. For example, this concept of an Educator In Residence. That is amazing. That is so cool. And I feel like if I had seen something like that in other EdTech companies, it would be very meaningful for me.
Elana:
Just for context, I think it was our first one, but last summer we did an Educator In Residence position, and it was for practicing in-classroom teachers for them just during summertime to come and join us and get their feet wet on what it would be like in the world of EdTech. Granted, we're a little bit different because we service EdTech, but what it would be like to help us with social media strategy and plans for EdTech and community building for EdTech and content creation for EdTech. And a shout-out to our first ever Educator In Residence, Stevie Frank, who is now still working with us to help engage with clients and gives us feedback all the time.
Eman:
That's amazing.
Elana:
It's something really hard to do, I would say that we're still struggling with, is how do we constantly infuse educator voices into everything we do? It's not easy. But what we want to do is at least create the space to learn, and then reflect and say, "How can we make it better for next time?" But we learned so much from her. We still have her onboard. We're going to do one for this summer as well. And I think we're probably putting the job out in a month or so.
Eman:
That's beautiful to me, because like you said, they're not out of the classroom, they're stepping in, they're dipping their toes, and they're seeing what it's like. And that gives them, honestly, an edge, because if they do choose to go into that, then you have that background.
Elana:
Great. Well, I think in the world of EdTech, there's a lot going on. There's a lot going on in K-12. At times, EdTech is trying to sell to K-12 when some of the most challenging moments in our history are happening. And on top of that, educators need more support than ever, every single day. I'm wondering if, Eman, you started an EdTech company and it's booming. What were the things that you think you would do to support educators? Because I don't think we talk about supporting educators just for the sake of it, too, enough in EdTech.
Eman:
I think, one, I said this before, but listening to them is paramount. Listening, listening, listening, and providing as many avenues as you can to listen. When I say listen, I don't just mean sit in a room with them. I'm talking reading their comments, reading their posts. If we're going to talk about the Nourished Teachers community sitting in the spaces that they convene together, their in-person or virtual lounges, if that's the word you want to use, it doesn't matter. Getting their feedback when creating events and spaces for them. I think the biggest learning curve for me was understanding. Oftentimes I feel like EdTech companies look at the hero or the person that's at the end of the line as the student or the learner.
And I understand why people think that, because they are the ones that are going to be receiving the learning or piloting whatever it is that you're testing out. I think that the hero is the educator. I truly, truly, truly feel that way. I get to experience that every day in the role that I do in the Nourished Teachers community. But if we can really internalize and unlock that, if the teacher is good, and they feel heard, and they have opportunities to co-design with you and really plan what would make the experience, whatever your experience you're choosing to be beautiful, then everybody's going to benefit. Not just the learners. Literally everybody's going to benefit. So I think that --
Elana:
Those of you not seeing the video, I was like, is my hands raising the roof? Yeah. Bugs me to no end. We treat teachers like conduits. I have to go through the teacher to get to the student that I actually care about. And we don't do it intentionally at times, but a lot of our language really reinforces that. And what if we just supported educators for educators' sake? In common sense, if educators are happy, feeling seen, feeling heard, all the things around that, guess what? Everyone around them benefits. So, we don't --
Eman:
Literally everyone. 100%. I think that was like, that singular understanding coming down to the members of the company or to the company itself, if you understand that, I feel like it's very transformative. Very transformative.
Elana:
Awesome. Well, we've been teasing about Nourished Teachers, we've been teasing about what you do in your role. Let's actually get into it. Maybe tell us a little bit about Nourished Teachers, and maybe talk about your role and if you have a typical day, what a typical day is like for you.
Eman:
Nourished Teachers is a community. I'm very intentional about saying that it is a community of teachers. It exists as a Facebook Group. And notice I say the word group, because groups are not necessarily communities. Groups are just groups of people together that exist in an online platform. So the Nourished Teachers, we have currently about 640 teachers from around the United States, which is so incredible, all ages, all spans, all subjects, all genders. It's awesome. And the purpose of the Nourished Teachers community is to focus on nourishing the educator first and foremost as the respected human they are.
And that is very powerful, because that addresses their personal life, that addresses their professional life, that addresses their hobbies, their ups, their downs or lows, their normals, all of that. All of that is welcome here. It is a safe community, meaning that we keep it gated, as in the people that are in the Facebook Group or the community are specifically classroom K-12 teachers in the United States. And what myself and four other moderators do -- we have four moderators that are current classroom teachers. They co-design this every day -- is that we really cultivate the community. We spend a lot of time listening and informing the culture of what this place looks like.
So most of my day, if I were to break down what my typical day looks like, it straddles obviously between the Nourished Teachers world and the Meta world. But when I'm talking about the Nourished Teachers part, I do a lot of reading. I read a lot of comments, a lot of posts. I make sure that I react and comment on every single thing that educators are saying because it goes back to, like Elana was telling me, that community manager role: "I see you, I hear you. I may not know the answer, but if you're here at event, cool. If you're here to ask a question about so-and-so curriculum, wonderful. If you're here to share your joys, wonderful." And so I do a lot of that.
And oftentimes throughout the week, we also put in certain opportunities for teachers, as well to react to our comment. Example, every other month we do coffee. Go get yourself a cup of coffee, nourish yourself on your way to work. Tell us what you got, send us a picture, whatever. We do weekly CHATS, which stands for Come Hang out And Talk. But the topics of what we talk about vary from every single thing you can think about. We do things like crafts together. We have game nights, we have general chats where we just talk about what's going on in our classrooms today. And these are co-designed. These are co-designed by the moderators, and oftentimes the guest speakers themselves are teachers in the community who just want to talk and share about what they do.
We also pilot different experiences for them, which to me was game changing, life changing. For example, there was the partnership with Meta and LCG for the Meta Educator grant, which was a $250 unrestricted grant. And we piloted at first with the Nourished Teachers community. And it was so successful, to be able to test it out with these educators to say, "Hey, we respect you as the professional you are, fill out and so form throughout the process, whatever." And then they get to tell us, if they want to, what they use that money for. Those are some of the things that I do.
But I like to think of it as similar to what it's like when I was in my last years of teaching, when I remember my last years of teaching. I transitioned from being at the front of the room to the side of the room, and that's what I do every day now. I'm on the side facilitating, making sure the culture is rich and safe and nourishing.
Elana:
And as you were talking, I'm like, "Gosh, I bet you EdTech people that are thinking about a community go, 'Wow, this sounds like puppies and rainbows. It's like [inaudible 00:31:55], and send coffee. And how does this relate to the bottom line? How does this relate to their business objectives?'" We work really hard alongside you to really create that dotted line to business objectives. But the little things that Eman is talking about, actually aren't even in, I don't even know if they make the top ten of business objectives of having this community, but having a place that you can, not test things, but sometimes pilot things.
Eman:
Correct.
Elana:
And that is invaluable. And they don't dominate, I would say they're probably like 5% of the total posts, but every once in a while you'll be like, "Hey, we have an opportunity to user test something. Who's in?" There's a lot of those things. But beyond that, it's invaluable to understand the pulse of educators every single day. What are they going through, what are they feeling? How do they talk about things? How do they not talk about things? What's triggering for them? You have your own private space there that you want to make sure that you always maintain confidentiality and you don't ever hurt trust.
But it almost reminds me of when BabyCenter existed, they had this really big forum where all, and you might know of them now, Eman, but you can go there and ask any question under the sun. And it's this huge community, but I think Johnson & Johnson owns them, or Procter & Gamble or something, owned them for a while. And they used it just purely for R&D, purely. They never really pushed any of their products or anything like that. It was just understanding deeply who they're serving.
Eman:
Totally. And I wanted to add something on that, too, in that I spend most of my day doing that, but I'm also in Meta. And so there's a big portion of that, of providing that pipeline or window. I create, for example, strategy documents, or I work on recruitment documents. I work with marketing on a daily basis. But when you come to a marketing team, for example, and tell them, "Listen, little things like being seen and heard in this way or that way, make a difference," that is so much more powerful than saying something like, "I'll do a paid ad to get a teacher to join our community." That's cool. But having word of mouth, because this teacher's had their life changed being in this community, is even more powerful. And so goes back to that translation thing, living between those two worlds.
Elana:
Yes. So you talked a little bit about your role. I know that you're slightly downplaying your role within Meta itself, because I know running social teams and community teams, it's hard sometimes to really translate what you see every day in the community to a meeting. And you'll do your best, but then you'll find yourself being invited to all the meetings, because they want that teacher voice. Right? So part of your role is recognizing "how do I train them up as well so they can build their own capacity, too?" And that's always the struggle of community managers and social media managers, because they're on the pulse every day, right?
Eman:
Correct. There's a big element of advocacy, huge, huge element of advocacy and trying to understand how do you translate what's happening in both a quantitative and qualitative way? Because they're our community, you can't quantify everything in community, and you also can't qualify, if that's even a word, everything in a tech company. And so you have to have this dance where you're showing vignettes of what's happening also with activity rate, for example, to show that something's working here, and it's unique.
Elana:
I love that. It is a dance. And like you said, sometimes you're doing things in the beginning of the podcast and you don't know the words for it. And it's okay, because sometimes in community the words don't exist. And we can tell you, and we have gotten very good at giving you measurable outcomes of community, but the fact of the matter is you have to be comfortable knowing that you will never know the impact, the entire impact that the community does. Porter really has taught me a ton. So Porter leads our community, and she's the director of joy here at LCG has taught me a ton about community. And she would say very confidently, "Elana, community saves lives."
And I said, "Wow, okay. You're really confident about that." And I've seen it, and I had seen bits of it at Edutopia, but not to the level I see and the depth if you really be strategic and think about what type of community you do want to foster and what type you don't, and you see it happen, and it is a lifeline to your educators.
Eman:
I'm so happy to be working with people like you and Porter, because that intentionality is what makes it lift. You have to really, really -- it's a heavy lift in the beginning to be that intentional about your guidelines and the culture you want to build. And then, once you really build that base, I think it was Porter that was telling me about the stages of community building. It follows the stages of biology, like the mitosis stages. But once you get to that point where you are mitosising, if that's even a word, the community's going to tell you what it wants, which is pretty beautiful.
Elana:
And those of you that listen to some of our podcasts might be sick of this, but we talk about this magic in the middle. So what the community wants is something that you have to take into consideration, because if you don't build anything that they want, they're not going to go to it. But you can't build something just what they want for the sake of what they want. It has to match with your business objectives. Then you have to get the real person in the room and say, "Do we have budget? Do we have capacity? Do I have some human manpower here to jump in?" It has to also be that intersection of capacity, but the business objectives and the member needs. And what Porter has said to me a long time ago that stuck with me is that you don't have a community unless your members of community say it's a community.
Eman:
That's correct.
Elana:
You can't call it a community. I was like, that's brilliant. I love it. And it's true.
Eman:
100% true. And when you start to hear that, you're like, "Yeah, we're doing something right."
Elana:
For sure. So amongst all of your day-to-day, and you've been in it for a long time, every minute, every weekend, if you had to boil down some of your top lessons learned building community, do you have a couple of them you think that would be helpful for others as they're maybe considering the profession, or they're community builders and they don't know it, right?
Eman:
Well, I can think of one right now from our conversation, and that's, like, when you are starting out to build a community, do sweat the small stuff, do. Sweat that small stuff, be intentional like we just talked about right now. What is it that your vision is? What is it that your mission is? And how do you want to build that culture down to everything? I would say that that's something that has really resonated with me, because when I joined Nourished Teachers, I went from being reactionary to now being proactive. And that's a huge transformation for me. That would be one thing that's really important to me.
The second thing that I would think about is what does it mean to be a community? I've asked that question. That was one of my first questions when I joined Meta, because when you asked people what they think community is, there are so many different answers depending on where they are. And so, what you believe to be community, align yourself with other folks that have the same vision. And I'm happy to say I feel like I have the same understanding of community that you, Elana, have, or that Porter, for example, has, or that even members of my team in Meta have in terms of where they want the Nourished Teachers to go. So that's huge.
Elana:
That's huge. I think the other thing that I've seen us all struggle with is, it's okay if you can't do it all. If you can't get to it all. And if you are truly co-creating a community, and I love our model where we do have facilitators that can jump in, that are in classroom, that as you build an active and growing community, you will never have time to hit every single educator that responds, jumps in. And that's actually a good problem to have. I remember us reflecting in our meetings. It's like this was one of the first times I couldn't catch up. And I was so glad that we had people on different time zones and things.
Eman:
Completely, completely.
Elana:
You can't be control freak coming into community.
Eman:
You really can't, because the community's going to tell you what it wants. And that's the last thing, especially working at Meta, which is a company that is founded in social networking and building community, understanding that your journey is not a sprint, it's a marathon. You have to be patient. It's going to take some time. And then when you think it's taking time, it's going to take some more time. And that's okay.
Elana:
And think about what matters most. Because sometimes we think about what matters most, and we're big numbers, vanity metrics, but does that really matter? And sometimes it's same thing that applies to social media, and I give them a "would you rather." Would you rather have a page like Coca-Cola on Facebook, with millions of followers, but zero engagement. And when they post, it's like RSSV, Pay. Here's a promotion. Would you rather have that very low engagement, very low reach, very high vanity metrics, very high members, or would you have something on the other spectrum, 200 people, but very high reach, every single one of them is actively engaged? And I know those are a huge, big contrast, and somebody's probably going to say, "I want something in the middle." And that's probably right. But the point of the exercise is to get them to understand what they really want.
Eman:
Correct.
Elana:
And sometimes we just say, "I want big numbers." But what do those big numbers actually do to the impact that you want?
Eman:
And you can start on any spectrum. People do that. People will go for this spectrum or they'll go for this spectrum. They both have heavy lifts in a different way.
Elana:
That's true. Well, I think we've talked a lot about community. I thank you for being just really honest and raw about the challenges. This is hard work. This is a labor of love. You're in it every day. You'll have bad days, you'll have good days. It's sometimes never one big moment. It's a culmination of all the little things, right? And it is very rewarding work. Your passion is shining through. I know if people want to reach out to you about community, we'll also put some resources about community building in the Show Notes. And after this episode, we'll throw in the URL and I'll talk about the URL or you can get to it, but the Show Notes will have resources if you want to explore community even more so.
But Eman, as we wrap up this episode, I'd love for you, since you have been an educator, if you have any parting thoughts to educators, to parents, to education administrators right now, speaking of seeing them and hearing them. Is there anything you want to say to them?
Eman:
I reflected on this the other day, and I was thinking about that, and it's the conclusion that I come to even when I spend time in the Nourished Teachers community, and that's like I'm sending you so much love, no matter, no matter what stage you're in, whatever perspective it is, whether you're an educator or a parent or an admin, there's so much love to you right now, because it's not easy. It's not easy wherever you are. And it sounds random, but it reminds me of whether you're in the car or whether you're a pedestrian or whether you're in a bike. And everybody that's in that position is like, "Move out of my way." We're like, "This is my right of way," and we're all on the same road. I hope that we give each other that grace, because it's really rough out there today, and there are moments of joy that we can find. But also at the same time, just give yourself that time. I know that that's not that deep, but it's truly how I feel.
Elana:
No, and it's really helpful. It's really helpful. It starts with, that's a very empathetic response of, we see you, give yourself a break. It's freaking hard and we're sending love.
Eman:
It is. It is freaking hard, and we're sending love, and we're sending it from the perspective that we can in our capacity.
Elana:
The last question we ask all of our guests as we wrap up is a fun one, because your days maybe are challenging even as an educator, obviously, but when we have those days that, gosh, you just feel like you want to go home and just stare at a wall or hit your head or "Don't talk to me. I want to get in my box. I cannot process anything more. This was such a challenging day, I feel depleted." How do you replenish yourself?
Eman:
That's a really good question. I love to sing. I love to sing. I love to play the guitar. That's my joy. And admittedly, I do a lot of social media, so I'm, like, on Facebook or TikTok or watching Netflix. But most importantly for me, it's been so important for me to spend time with my family, because when you are in the position that you're in doing the work that I do, it's a lot of empathy. It's a lot of taking on. And so when you're with your family, it's nice to be able to let that go.
Elana:
That's great. Well, we could talk for hours, and I'm lucky that we get to alongside you, but really quickly, why don't you tell people how they can get in touch with you. And if you're thinking about any resources you'd like to share, we can put them in the Show Notes as well.
Eman:
Sounds good. I think the best way to reach me is via LinkedIn, to be honest. Elana, I don't know how that works. If I give you the --
Elana:
Yeah, I'll put it in the show notes, too.
Eman:
Perfect. I'll give you the LinkedIn, that's the best way to keep in touch with me. And if you are a classroom K-12 teacher and you'd like to see me in the Nourished Teachers community, please join.
Elana:
And so what we'll do is we'll put information on how you can join the Nourished Teachers community. It's a completely free community. And what we do is make sure that it's a safe enough space that you are valid K-12 US educators. And then there's not admins or other things that you might feel less inclined to talk in groups. We take that very seriously as well. And as you heard from Eman, her passion is growing communities. There's a lot of passionate educators in there that purely are there just to help each other because, as we've talked about, and you know if you're listening, this is not easy. Hope to make it a little bit brighter in your day at times. And the smiles keep us going when we see them in Nourished Teachers.
Eman:
Absolutely. It's a beautiful place to be, honestly.
Elana:
Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Eman, for joining us. I did promise you the Show Notes URL. So it is leoniconsultinggroup.com. So that's two Gs, leoniconsultinggroup.com\40. That's the age I tell people I am. 40. For all the notes. And if you're a just person that loves to read and say, "What did she say again?", we'll actually recap the highlights of the conversation as well and throw in all of the resources that we've mentioned in this episode. Thank you all for joining. We really appreciate it. As always, I encourage you to pause after this episode and reflect on what did you learn and what are the small things you can put into action in your day? Because sometimes it's just a small mind shift, and it can make such a big difference. Thank you all very much. We'll see you next time on All Things Marketing and Education.
Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode. If you liked what you heard and want to dive deeper, you can visit leoniconsultinggroup.com\podcast for all Show Notes, links, and freebies mentioned in each episode. And we always love friends, so please connect with us on Twitter @LeoniGroup. If you enjoyed today's show, go ahead and click the subscribe button to be the first one notified when our next episode is released. We'll see you next week on All Things Marketing and Education.
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Elana Leoni, Host
Elana Leoni has dedicated the majority of her career to improving K-12 education. Prior to founding LCG, she spent eight years leading the marketing and community strategy for the George Lucas Educational Foundation, where she grew Edutopia’s social media presence exponentially to reach over 20 million education change-makers every month.
Eman Haggag, Guest
Eman Haggag has been a teacher for the past 15 years. While she's been involved in teaching and developing integrated STEM content for K-12, her favorite stage to work with is the strange, hilarious, and formative years of middle school. With this age group, Eman developed a keen interest and need to be intentional about SEL for learners -- and ultimately teachers. More recently, Eman dipped her toes into instructional coaching and helping educators meaningfully integrate technology into the learning journey. She says it's a beautiful reminder to rediscover that teachers, no matter the circumstance, never stop being educators. She calls them the most resilient, adaptable, talented, community-oriented, and just incredible people. Eman's other passions include playing guitar, doing voiceover and improv, and playing with her cats and son. She recently relocated to Michigan from the SF Bay Area and is thrilled by the change of seasons.
About All Things Marketing and Education
What if marketing was judged solely by the level of value it brings to its audience? Welcome to All Things Marketing and Education, a podcast that lives at the intersection of marketing and you guessed it, education. Each week, Elana Leoni, CEO of Leoni Consulting Group, highlights innovative social media marketing, community-building, and content marketing strategies that can significantly increase brand awareness, engagement, and revenue.
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