This interview was originally recorded on May 5, 2022, as part of Leoni Consulting Group’s All Things Marketing and Education Podcast.
Access this episode's show notes, including links to the audio, a summary, and helpful resources.
[Start of recorded material 00:00:01]
Elana:
Hello, and welcome to All Things Marketing and Education. My name is Elana Leoni, and I've devoted my career to helping education brands build their brand awareness and engagement. Each week I sit down with educators, EdTech entrepreneurs, and experts in educational marketing and community building. All of them will share their successes and failures using social media, inbound marketing, or content marketing and community building. I'm excited to guide you on your journey to transform your marketing efforts into something that provides consistent value and ultimately improves the lives of your audience.
Hello, everyone. I'm Elana Leoni. And I would love to welcome you to this week's episode of All Things Marketing and Education. Today, I am super excited. I am talking with Rachelle Dené Poth, a classroom teacher. She's an EdTech consultant, she's a presenter, she's a previous and current attorney, she's an author, she's ten million things. I'm going to let her introduce what she does because, wow, it is a lot. Rachelle is truly one of these incredible human beings that you just give so much to education in so many ways. And I want to take the time to recognize that because I think you move ten million miles a minute, and you don't recognize that, but you create this beautiful ripple effect and are so selfless in what you do and how you give.
Throughout my journey, I actually can't remember the first time we met, Rachelle, but we're kind of ebbing and flowing in the world of EdTech, right? So me at Edutopia, seeing you at EdTech conferences on the Twitters, those things, but I remember you just being so supportive of me, and especially as I made my transition to what I'm doing now at LCG. So that was a scary time for me. And I wasn't sure that, honestly, I defined myself through Edutopia so much. I wasn't sure people would even hang out with me. I'm silly, but you were always so supportive. And I appreciate that about you. And I know that I'm not the only one that you were supportive of. So if you run into her on Twitter or at EdTech conferences, know that she will be your biggest fan.
When I talk to Rachelle – and you'll get this feeling soon, as soon as I introduce her and she gets going – I walk away incredibly inspired, but at the same time with everything she does, I tend to walk away going, "Wow, I am not doing enough." I am a complete slacker, but she just does so much. And she's running full-time all of the time. And I know you all will walk away incredibly inspired as well. I'm pretty much convinced that she doesn't sleep. And at ISTE when I saw her, she was a featured keynote voice. She was moving and shaking everywhere at ISTE. You were just doing so much. And I was literally just trying to hide from COVID and pace myself. But I was so impressed by you.
Rachelle is somebody who's incredibly passionate about so many things in education, especially education technology. And there's no way we're going to get into all the things she's going to be passionate about, but I'd like her to talk about her unique journey into EdTech, into the world of education. And then I'm going to – I'm sure she's going to get in to some EdTech trends, post COVID, during COVID. And then we're going to do a little bit of a dive into the world of artificial intelligence. So I am so excited to have her on as a guest. Welcome, Rachelle.
(00:03:37)
Rachelle:
Well, thank you for that very extensive overview of who I am and what I do. And I'm exhausted just thinking about it and listening to it. So I do get asked, the number one question people ask me is, "I have to ask you, do you sleep?" I'm like, "Yes, I do." I probably don't sleep enough. But apparently according to a recent conversation that I had with a friend of my mother that, I guess, this woman used to babysit me, this actually was just a couple of weeks ago, she said, "When you were a kid, I could never get you to go to sleep. You always asked for something else. It was one thing after another." And, I guess, maybe it stems from my childhood. It's just, I just don't need that much sleep, or I don't want to sleep. Because I feel like I'm going to miss out on something.
(00:04:22)
Elana:
There was a question in a teacher community. It was like, "Would you rather be a ninja or a vampire?" I'm like, "I'd love to be a vampire, because they don't sleep and you can get so much more done." Right?
(00:04:32)
Rachelle:
Yeah, yeah. I am fairly, I guess, I'm more productive at night. For some reason, I have flows throughout the day, but later in the evening I just got into a habit of working late, and it's quiet and there's not a lot of things going on. And, I guess, it just works for me, but it does catch up with me after a while. But thank you for having me on today. I'm excited to talk to you.
(00:04:52)
Elana:
Yes. We're excited to learn from you as well. I think before we dive into the topics of EdTech and artificial intelligence, talk to the audience and introduce yourself on your very unique path into the world of education. I know that, I think, I find it still incredibly interesting, and I don't even know all the nooks and crannies. Can you tell the audience of your really unique and beautiful path into the world of education and EdTech?
(00:05:19)
Rachelle:
There are a lot of nooks and crannies in this journey. It's still continuing to evolve, but I'm not somebody that knew when I was younger that I wanted to be a teacher, first of all. It wasn't like I was going through high school like, "When I grow up, I want to go into education. I want to be a French teacher or anything." I always loved learning. When I would go to school, I would come home and I wanted to play school. I wanted to make worksheets, or I wanted to be the teacher. I was that kid that did that, but never thought about going into education as a career, even when I was at Penn State, which is where I did my undergrad. And it wasn't until, I think, I was taking courses in French because that's what I was good at.
And I was quickly finding out what I wasn't so good at, that actually in high school, I was not too bad in classes like math and science, but at college it was much more like a difficult experience, and it was a large school. So I didn't have those smaller class sizes and that connection with teachers as I did in high school. But I also don't think that I challenged myself enough. So anyway, my junior year, I had still not declared a real major. I was enrolled in the school of liberal arts, and the guidance counselor said, "You kind of need something to focus on because graduation's not that far away." And it just was suggested that I go into education because I enjoyed helping people. I had this degree that I was working on in French, and there were some other parts of that conversation.
So I thought, "OK, I'll do this. I'll give it a try." And loved student teaching, being in the classroom with the students, and graduated. And I just, I thought that I would be able to get a job right away. And I couldn't, which is not uncommon, but when you're teaching something just French, some schools only have one language. That's one language teacher, or if they have two, it's one French and one Spanish. I substituted for three years. But during that time, I got my degree in Spanish to kind of open up more possibilities, which after three years subbing, I did get the position where I am now. And I've been in my current school since the last century, is what I like to say. But it was during that time that I became – I had an interest in the law.
I read John Grisham novels, just was very, very intrigued by all of that. And I thought about taking courses and becoming a paralegal, but kind of forgot about it, started teaching. And then probably four years into teaching, I gave it some more thought and I thought, "I wonder what it would be like to be an attorney?" And I took the test, got the score. Didn't know what that meant. I'm like, "I don't know how I compared anybody else." I forgot about it. And then I think two or three more years went by, and I thought about it again. And I thought, "I want to see if I could be accepted." So I took the test, applied to Duquesne University in Pittsburgh, because I wasn't going to quit teaching full-time to go to law school. And I was accepted. I taught full-time while going to law school full-time, four years, four nights a week, and graduated in 2006.
But the last thing that I'll say, because this was kind of a long answer, is that I never did get a master's from getting my bachelors into the law degree, but had it not been for getting the law degree, I know that I wouldn't still be in education. That kind of kept me into it, I guess you could say, or pushed me into it even more than what I was already involved in.
(00:08:36)
Elana:
And when you said you taught full-time and went to law school full-time, let's just full-stop pause there. That's crazy. And that's probably where you get your hustle. That's probably where you just go full speed because you're used to it, right?
(00:08:50)
Rachelle:
I think so. They were long days, but I promised myself and pretty much my whole family that I would not complain about it because it wasn't something that I had to do. I had a great job. It was just a personal fulfillment that I wanted to do. And I thought, "Well, I'm not going to complain about the fact that I'm spending 17 hours a day, pretty much in a school building." But I wouldn't change a thing about that either, because, again, I would not still be in education had it not been for that experience. So it led to a lot of other changes and evolution in my practice. So I'm continuing to learn as I go. And I don't know, here we are 16 years later and, I don't know, the journey continues.
(00:09:36)
Elana:
And what is it about now that you have been teaching for so long, and you did have this other option to really pursue law, and what is it about education that just keeps you going and keeps you in the classroom?
(00:09:50)
Rachelle:
I think, it's a lot of things. I'm curious for learning, and the number one thing is the students and those relationships and the opportunity to just be myself, because, I don't know, I thrive on that. And even when I was substituting – and that's not reliable income, of course. In addition to taking the Spanish courses, I was working at restaurants, and I loved doing that as well, just because of those interactions with the people and different experiences every day. But in the classroom, an opportunity to make, I don't know, something happen every single day to change things up, to be my authentic self, to get to connect with students, to use my love of languages for good, to help others, whether or not they all go on to be language educators, even though we need them, it's just that connection. And that piece that enables me to share what I love, but also to learn from the students in that space where every day is different and exciting. Not without its challenges, but I just, I get excited to go to school every day. And I don't know, I've always, like I said, when I was a kid, I loved school. And as an adult, I still love school.
(00:11:00)
Elana:
That's awesome. Well, let's dive into a little bit of the world of EdTech. We'll get into AI, but let's rewind just a little bit, because you were kind of with me and a bunch of other people while we were trying to figure out, "Gosh, what is this pandemic doing to EdTech in the classroom? And can we expect it to continue after and post-pandemic? Right?
Rachelle:
Right.
Elana:
You want to talk a little bit about what you saw, what you experienced? You have the local lens of what it did specifically to your classroom and your students, but you also connect nationally and internationally, too, to trends and people. So feel free to talk to any experience there, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on just when you were in the pandemic itself, the specific changes. And then as we ease out of the pandemic, the good, the bad, the not ugly, but [laughing] you know, the –.
(00:12:00)
Rachelle:
Yeah. It's interesting. The first thing is that, because me or anybody else that's in a similar situation where you've been using technology in your classroom, a lot of people thought, "Wow, this change to fully virtual must be easy." And it wasn't. It didn't matter how much experience you had with teaching and/or using technology in the classroom, it was so sudden that there was no amount of preparation for that. That was the first thing. And then the next part of it was the scramble of trying to figure out, "OK, how do I take what I was doing in my classroom and put that into the virtual space and trying to use, or do all the same things?" But I think, at least for me, it was challenging trying to figure out because in a given 42-minute period, I could do a lot of different things with a class of 20, 25 students.
And when they leave, even if I haven't given them a paper or some type of an activity, I still have a good idea of how they're doing, first of all, because that's really important. And then where they are in terms of learning from what we covered that day, or just throughout that process. But in the virtual space, it was like trying to figure out how to fit all of that into it, because the time it took for students to connect or if they were joining in or not joining in, and just that piece of being in person, being able to see one another was so challenging for everybody. And I think, as a couple of weeks went by, you started to find a space to fit, but then came this, "Hey, there's all these EdTech tools and they're all free." So everybody's grabbing for all of them and still not really knowing what to do with them, I guess.
And because just struggling to get through, thinking, "Hopefully after the summer, we're going to go back to normal school." But I remember being involved in the conversation with, I think, six or seven people in varying roles in education. And this is probably April of 2020. And one of the people in that conversation said, "I'm telling you right now that we are not going to see a return to an almost-normal-setting style of school until the 2022-2023 school year." And at that time I almost fell out of my chair, because I thought, "Wait a minute, that's really far away." And here we are in 2022, and we really haven't. Some schools have, some schools were very minimally impacted after that initial couple of months, but the majority had some type of an experience with it.
And so, the one thing, one of the benefits that I said, it was like a loud, annoying, I-never-set-this wake-up call that pushed teachers to either start using technology or to think about the methods that they were using in their classroom. And to make some changes to also embrace risk-taking which, like, "What do you have to lose at the end of a school year when you've got nothing anyway, so you just go for it?" And I think that inspired a lot of educators to really look at what the options were out there. And then the flip side of that, too, is when there were so many things that were available for free, a lot of schools started to do an audit and say, "Hey, we're using 400 different apps and tools within our school. We need to pull some of that in."
And through all of those conversations and responses, I guess you could say, too, something else that I know became right at the forefront was the communication with families and how critical that is, having something in place to communicate with all families and making sure that they can access those resources. So it was like a lot of things being juggled at the same time, and not specific to education, either, because people in the workplace – It wasn't like only educators and families and the school, the children were doing the bunch of things at the same time. Everybody in the world was. And I think a lot of people started to reevaluate how they were working, how they were interacting with one another, and to start to kind of be more intentional about their work and their practice.
(00:15:58)
Elana:
That's super interesting. When you were even just recounting that story about that person saying 2022-2023 school year, it gave me goosebumps a little bit. And imagine having that foresight of just things are not – One, "I don't think anything is going back to normal." But it takes a little while to get back into that cadence and that rhythm and that stability, too. And there's other instability happening in the K-12 environment that are making us all a little bit scared and trepidatious getting back into the school year. But that just made me pause and, I'm sure, I can't imagine during the time when he said it, you're like, "Whoa."
Rachelle:
Yes.
I was recently talking to an educator that's part of our team for the summer and the educator in residence, Stevie. And she was talking about really just a slight disappointment, I would say, about how sometimes we want to get back to normal, but we've defined normal as more of the traditional sit-and-get a little bit. Do you see a little bit of that trend happening back into the school year where they're like, "Great. We had all these free tech tools. Those are going away. We had innovation, but let's get back to normal." Do you see that at all?
(00:17:13)
Rachelle:
Yeah. And it's funny that you say that, too, because I know probably in that summer and, well, actually even after that summer, because when the school year was starting to approach, we were still kind of, at least at my school, "Are we going to be in person? Are we going to be hybrid? Are we going fully virtual?" But then after the first nine weeks and we went back into the schools, I even said, "I wonder what it's going to be like when we get back into our classroom." Because just however long you've been teaching, you have the materials that you use, you have the space in your classroom where you normally sit or stand, and you get back into that routine that felt more normal – you know, in quotes, "normal" – and I did that. I struggled whenever I got back into that, because I'm thinking, "Wait, this isn't how I normally do this. I did it this other way. Which one's the better way to do it?"
And to get out of that routine. And even with people that I spoke to throughout that school year in my school and beyond my school, they were experiencing the same thing. It's like, you – As a Spanish One teacher, there are points throughout the year where I'll think to myself, "Wow, it's already April." Because that's usually when we start talking about a certain vocabulary theme, and that's when you know with every passing year you're like, "I feel like I just said this and that was a year ago." And there's that comfort in that, because you know what to do because you've been doing that for so long.
And then you have this interruption that happened where now you got to change everything. You had all these free options. You had different ways to learn and connect with students. And then you're like, "Which one is the right way?" And that was a struggle. And for me, it definitely was. And I did catch myself going back to the way I had been doing things, and not so much because I felt like I had to, but actually the setup of my room led me back into that, because for years I had the students lined up in rows, and then about four years ago, I pushed them all into stations because I just felt like I couldn't connect with the students. They weren't getting along with each other really well. And I liked the options that were available. Now, when we get back to the classroom with the spacing, they had to be back in the row.
I felt, again, like I was standing at the front, they were sitting, and they were taking in all the Spanish lessons, and I didn't have as many options. So it took a little bit of time to kind of transition and find a way to merge, like what I had changed about my practice from the virtual teaching, and what I liked about what I had been doing in my normal kind of pre-COVID school closure experience, and work through that. But even throughout that school year and into this past one, I was still continuing to make changes and tweaks to that as well. And I'm sure many other people can say the same thing.
(00:19:49)
Elana:
Really interesting to think about. I think from the vantage point in the world of EdTech and professional, EdTech professionals and leaders that are listening, we're like, "Well, we're seeing the trends." But you bring up the really good point, because you're experiencing it. Physical space dictates a lot of what you do, right? And we know this, but it's kind of – it takes you to remind us, too – that all of a sudden physical space can limit or sometimes expand what you can and cannot do, right? And I can't even imagine, if I was doing this, I'd be in the classroom and it'd be almost like Jekyll and Hyde, but not evil voice, but it would be like, "Do it this way in the virtual world. No, do it this way in the physical world." And what's right? And you probably don't think either one's right, right?
(00:20:34)
Rachelle:
No, it was, it's – I don't even want to say it was interesting, because it still continues to be because you don't really know. You wait for that call or that notice that says, "Wow, we're going to be virtual for a day or for a week." There's no way to really prepare for that. But I can relate to the voices saying, "No, wait, you didn't always do it this way and you have to use this." And then there were some things that I used to do that I had totally forgotten about that I really liked. But being in that virtual space, I'm like, "Well, I can't do that." And then even at the end of this school year, I thought, "Oh my gosh, I totally forgot about these different methods or activities that I had done before, but that's OK. Because the summer and time to reflect and throw that back into next year."
(00:21:19)
Elana:
Yeah. That's all you can do is just move forward and reflect. So speaking of EdTech and the things that were maybe introduced to many educators and maybe not yourself, because I feel like you use a lot of EdTech, but thinking about a lot of the new EdTech that was adopted during the pandemic, what have you seen stick? Are there trends of people continuing to use it, or are right now you are just getting off of ISTE and other EdTech conferences, are there trends in EdTech that maybe surprise you, that people are just really excited about that wouldn't be because of the pandemic? Or is it just kind of same old but in a good way? We had good stuff to talk about but...
(00:22:00)
Rachelle:
Right. I think it's kind of a mix. I think that a lot of schools are using Microsoft Teams or they're using Canvas or some type of space where they hadn't, there wasn't – or maybe a few teachers were using something that has been put into place by a lot of schools just to have that consistent space where students, teachers, families, anybody can look and find what they need, because for a lot of schools, they didn't have that. And then you're like, "How do I connect with my students?" Some other things, just the ways that you can kind of build relationships using some of the different tools where you have students do, like in my case, a speaking assessment or to do kind of collaborations globally when schools close.
I mean, for me, I'm the only Spanish teacher in my school. So lucky you're not for my students. They're with me for potentially four years of Spanish. And I know most of them, except for when the newer students come into Spanish One, if I didn't have them in the eighth-grade course, I don't know them. And we're a small school district. So most of the students know each other, but creating that virtual space where they can get to know you, you can get to know them, they can get to know each other. I think a lot of teachers started to look for some of those tools to amplify student voice and to facilitate those collaborations and communication, whether or not it's just between teacher and student, or if it was more toward teacher and parent to have that space.
And then another component that I think has really increased, and in my experience, has been STEM, everything related to STEM: coding, emerging technologies, conferences that I've been at as an attendee or a presenter or both. It seems like those topics have increased a lot. And then even, I would say, I don't want to say even with that or as a tie with that, but pretty close and I don't know which one edges the other, but social-emotional learning and looking for ways to kind of help students to build those skills, whether it's through different methods they're using because technology may not always work – you never know when it comes to that, it might change – but finding ways to help students to build those skills, to prepare for the future or to deal with challenges and stress like we've all experienced. But I think teachers are definitely more interested, overall, in that ongoing learning, and willing to take risks more than they were before. Because I think, it kind of pushed a lot of educators into that space, and they're like, "I kind of like all of these different options and what it can do for student learning."
(00:24:31)
Elana:
And I'm trying to – because you said so many amazing things, but for the listeners, I'm sometimes the person that regurgitates the awesome things the speakers say? So I would say that your trends that you have seen that may or may not have surprised you, but are different post-pandemic, would be STEM. And I see cool, cool things happening in the world of STEM. I feel like more technology products are becoming more accessible to classrooms as well. The price has not been so intense as well, because there are more competitors driving the prices down too. So I definitely saw that at ISTE when I was walking the hall, I'm like, "This has decreased in price. This is awesome." So STEM, I see that. I see a lot of the student voice stuff, like you're saying, too, digital storytelling, and doing it in such different ways than we traditionally defined it before. I love when I'm seeing kids make podcasts about the Civil War.
Rachelle:
Definitely.
Elana:
[inaudible 00:25:28] kid. And what was the other one? So STEM, digital storytelling and SEL, and focus on relationships and mental health, right?
Rachelle:
Right.
Elana:
Do you feel like the SEL and the mental health, that was something that was at the forefront during the pandemic. I think of all the strategies in K-12 education, social and emotional learning is the most powerful, is the most impactful, because if they're not ready to learn, you can't teach them anything. You can't do project-based learning. You can't do cool integrated technology if they're not ready to learn and you don't have a relationship with them. Do you feel like that's going to continue? I really hope so.
(00:26:06)
Rachelle:
And I do. And I think that especially talking about when you say, "SEL versus," and then you talk about mental health. For so long, people were afraid to talk about mental health, or didn't know how to kind of address it, or activities or things like do check-ins with students. And I don't know why that is, but definitely those topics have become so integrated in conversation on a daily basis and people are really looking for ideas and strategies, and I've done – Surprisingly, somebody asked me years ago, "I've been wrong or just misunderstood so many things in my teaching career." And that goes back to the preparation, we're talking like, well, a long time ago with my classes. And again, I didn't always know I wanted to be a teacher, but the teacher prep programs they have now prepare them in so many different ways.
But somebody said to me a couple of years ago, 'What are you doing in your classroom for SEL?" And I was thrown off by it, because when they said SEL, I thought, "I'm not sure what that is." And I said, "Well, what are you doing?" And turn it back to you. And then they gave a couple of examples. I kind of figured out what it was. And then I said, "I'm doing some of those same things, too." And then I did some research. And then since then, I've actually been doing presentations on STEM and emerging technologies, but also a lot that are focused on SEL because, again, I'm not the expert, but it was something that I realized that was really important, and not something to be thought of as like, "It's one other thing on top of everything else they have to find a way to fit in."
There's so many different ways you can kind of blend that into what you're already doing. And it's essential that we do that starting early on all the way through it, even for us as adults. So that is something that, like you, I hope does continue, and for what I've seen and what I've read and experienced over the last couple of months and even on a daily basis, it seems like it is really at the forefront. So that's good.
(00:27:58)
Elana:
Awesome. Just shout out, I think, a couple of SEL resources to our listeners. We always provide Show Notes, too. So at the end of this podcast, we'll give you a link to the Show Notes, but I'll throw in a couple of resources, specifically with CASEL as a nonprofit organization that produces a lot of free resources, research-based materials on social-emotional learning. And Rachelle, if you have any and you feel comfortable sharing a couple of resources around social-emotional learning, we can throw those in the Show Notes as well, even if it's just a couple of tech tools.
(00:28:29)
Rachelle:
Well, I would definitely say CASEL is where I went to first for a lot of information. But even there's tools and there's methods that help students to kind of build those skills, so you don't have to really rely on the technology. But some that I found out about recently – well, not recently for this one – Peekapak has a great curriculum and lots of resources for students. And then EVERFI has some as well. And then even Buncee – last summer, I think it was – they created these two separate tool kits for, I believe, grades K-6 and 7-12, and they're broken into the five core competencies. For a teacher who is teaching, say, in eighth or ninth grade, and they look at their classroom and they see that students really need some help with building relationships, there are templates available that they can use for that. So all of those, and I'm sure plenty more out there to explore, but the nice thing is they have so much in that one space that you don't have to kind of go looking all over the place.
(00:29:26)
Elana:
Awesome. Well, let's think about diving in deeper into EdTech, but then also artificial intelligence. I know you're stoked on artificial intelligence, known as AI, in the world of education. And I think AI has been talked about for a while, but more on a theoretical level. Sometimes I lack, I don't tend to seek except your presentations that you do. And I think you know Steve Dembo and things like that, but I don't tend to see it directly connect to teaching as much, because it can be intimidating as a topic. And I was part of a program that introduced a little bit of AI into kids as it related to English. And that was exciting, but just to even introduce it, we had to talk about, "OK, what is AI?" And they had to give examples, and some of their examples were wrong, but that was OK, because we were wayfinding into the definition, right?
Rachelle:
Right.
Elana:
But why don't we start just talking about what is artificial intelligence, and how do you see it in the world of the classroom?
(00:30:30)
Rachelle:
That's the big question. And actually when it comes to AI, a lot of people say, "Well, is it going to take my job as a teacher? We don't need to use it." Or, "I don't see it, it doesn't exist." But I did some research over the last, goodness, probably four years, and actually my interest in it started because I had written a blog for Getting Smart. And my whole perception when I would think about AI was the movie I, Robot with Will Smith, and the robots start to think like humans, and then they feel, and then they take action on their own. And then even now, a lot of people have Alexa or Siri or those types of things, but don't really realize how much AI is used on a daily basis. And the thing about it, and I had a conversation with somebody a couple of years ago, and they said, "Well, the thing about AI is, when it's working or doing what it's supposed to be doing, you don't know. It's just happening."
It's like a superintelligence, I guess. Artificial intelligence becomes smarter over time, the knowledge expands, and it can sort and process a lot of information. And, again, there are things that we use in our everyday lives, and even in education, there are tools that have AI built into them that enable teachers to do a lot of different things. And even for students as well. But with EdTech and with any type of thing like artificial intelligence, we always have to look at the positives and negatives. Then what are some areas of concern, too? So with education, bringing opportunities in for ourselves to learn about AI and how it impacts us and the work that we do, but also helping students to understand what it means for them, not just now, but in the future for school, for work, for daily life.
I think so much the learning happens just by having simple conversations about it and not – My students in eighth grade, I'll ask them what AI is, and they'll quickly Google artificial intelligence and get millions of results because, thank you for all of that technology, and they'll try to read me this really long, detailed definition. And I'm like, "No, no, no. If somebody stops you on the street and says, 'Hey what's AI, can you give me some examples?' You're not going to be able to recite that to them. Put it into your own words." But a lot of the presentations that I do are on AI, and how do you get started teaching it about it in your classroom? What are some places or areas that we see it? Where are some resources that don't require us to invest a ton of time to kind of pull things together? But I do get very excited to talk about AI, anything technology actually.
(00:33:02)
Elana:
So let's back up to: I'm a teacher and maybe I'm going back to school in this school year that might be slightly a bit more "normal." Maybe, hopefully, I don't know. But how do they even make room for AI? What are some areas where they can just dip their toe in the water to see if they like it, if it resonates with their students? Do you have any kind of scaffolding or a getting started tips or tricks?
(00:33:31)
Rachelle:
It depends on the age that you're working with or the content area. There is definitely something out there for everybody. And, for me, when I started, again, not an expert, I didn't know that much about it. I found a couple of videos, and sometimes even just finding a video that's relevant to what you're teaching, an example, like, let's say you're teaching about, I don't know, just technology in general. And you find videos that have humanoid robots, or you find a video on Alexa, or even simple things like talking to students about assessments that you use in class, like some of those game-based learning tools, and then having a discussion: "OK, so let's say that you come into the class today, and I give you a test, or I'll give you a worksheet or some type of an assessment to do. So you write out your answers, you hand them in to me, and then I take them home. I go over them and then I write feedback on them. I give them back to you maybe the next day." Maybe not because that's time-consuming. In the process, you can kind of make a comparison and say to students, "OK, now we're going to use this digital tool, and you're going to get the same questions that you had on that paper."
But as you are working through it, I can see on my teacher dashboard how you're doing, and I could walk over to you and say, "Hey, I noticed this pattern." Or based on some of these tools now that have the AI built into them, as students respond, it can see how they're doing. And it can notice patterns in the time, if they're getting them correct or incorrect, and it can chart their own personalized learning path as they go, which then at the end of that time, one, it saves the teacher time.
I love paper, I love projects, I love those things, but that human component of it, to be able to grasp where the students are in the learning process and be able to save that time that you're sitting there writing the feedback, and then instead walk over and have the conversation, or for students to tie it back into SEL, see their results and be able to start to build that self-awareness, and maybe self-management because the stress of working through some of those things. But the biggest thing, I think, is conversation just saying, "Hey, today we're going to talk about AI. Where are we seeing AI use in the world?" Depending on your class, maybe what are some solutions?
Recently, I was in a STEM camp, and we had students working through a lot of things like creating 3D models, coding, artificial intelligence, AR/VR, and then they had to work together to come up with some project that focus on the United Nation's sustainable development goals. And then a component of that was how could AI help with what your problem is, or how could AR/VR or help with this SDG? And it was really interesting to see what the students came up with. So you don't really need a ton of time to dive into it. You can, because there are some resources out there for K-3, middle school, high school, you name it, but even just little components of it as part of a conversation or in your class, do a Google search and then explain to students the process of using the Dewey Decimal System and the card catalog, and how much time that takes, or show a video about that. Because that can be tied in to any class where a student has to do some research or get some background information. I could go on and list tons of great tools to get into, but even something as simple as a Google search for your class, that is a definite conversation starter.
(00:36:52)
Elana:
And what I love about you, a couple of things that you said too, you keep saying, "I'm not an expert." But what you are is a lifelong learner, which is a lot of educators out there. And if all of you got introduced to new types of technology and got excited about it, just continue that drive and that curiosity to dive in because whatever we do, we want to make sure that we're teaching as close to the real world as possible. And whether we like it or not, AI isn't – it's not infiltrating. I think that's a scary word, but it is ubiquitous in so many places in our life that we don't even know. And like you said, it just works. So we don't know, right? So we want to make sure that our students and our future generation understand it.
And then it opens up that broad world of digital citizenship a little bit more, like, how do we collectively determine the limits of AI and also name the things that you might be scared about, and talk about that openly? And a lot of the times it's based on myths, like you said, too. So there's so many options, like you talked about with AI, but what I love about artificial intelligence is it feels innately almost like EdCamping. If anyone has heard about EdCamps, it's all about the smartest person in the room is the room. And with AI, that exponential, it becomes very, very exponential because they use data from as much people as possible to say, "Here's the typical path or whatever it may be," and it starts learning and learning, and learning, right?
(00:38:24)
Rachelle:
Right. It's fascinating. Just even when I first started to do the research and saw, like, "Wow, I didn't know there was AI in that," and just list things. And when I do presentations, I have a top ten list of everyday uses of AI. And I always have people go through and give themselves a point for every one of those ten that they use. And I joked for years that I could never get higher than a seven because I don't have smart home devices. I didn't use facial recognition on my phone. And prior to November of 2020, I had never watched Netflix. But at that point in time, it seemed like I had a little bit of extra time on my hands. Then I went up to an eight, but it's interesting when I have these presentations, even with my students, how many of those students are at a seven or eight because they have all of those things. And then even adults are a ten out of ten, but I had no idea of all of the different ways that it is in our lives every single day.
(00:39:17)
Elana:
And from the EdTech perspective in the classroom, I actually feel like I lack EdTech tools that are student designed that are AI enhanced. The ones I know of off the top of my head are designed to help educators. It might be an AI grading system, or a student intervention system, or mental health, or AI chatbots, those things. But what are the other ones in the actual classroom? Do you see EdTech tools that are incorporating AI directly for student learning? Are there a couple that come to mind?
(00:39:51)
Rachelle:
Well, the first one, and I don't know if it is still out there, but it was Socrates, and I always joked "So-Crates," but when we used it – I think third and fifth grade, and it had math, I think – in ELA and my eighth graders, I always like to get them to kind of test things out because I want to see what it looks like. I want to get their feedback, because that's really important, no matter what you're doing, to get the students, their responses to tools we're using, to methods, because we need that feedback, too. But I set them up and I had them doing, I think, there were four of them in a row, and then library, and I had them do this fifth-grade math. Now there was a little bit of pushback because they're like, "I'm in eighth grade and I'm doing fifth-grade math." And I said, "That's OK, but I want to see how this works." So we counted down. They all started on the first question at the same time. And based on how quickly they answered, whether they were right or wrong, the next question wasn't always the same for them. And it just charted its own path for them. Although one student quickly got bored with the fifth-grade math and decided to code the little cherry at the bottom to go off of the screen instead. So that was fun.
But then there are some other ones, quizzes, I believe has it that you can turn the option on for, as the students are responding, depending on what their patterns are. If it's verbal conjugations, then they get additional questions based on what they miss. As teachers, we can do that. We can see those trends based on what students turn in to us. Or if we walk around, we have a conversation, however we assess our students, but to be able to give them something five minutes, the beginning of the class where it gathers it all for us, we see that then we can have the conversation or that it's really personalizing it for each student at that point in time, in real time. They're getting that feedback. They're getting the practice that they need, and it's saving time of, "I learned this wrong. Now I have to go back and relearn it. I'm building those skills." And, again, tying back into the SEL, that's self-awareness because they start to see this pattern like, "I'm getting this question again, and now I'm getting it right." And it's building their confidence and learning, too, because they get that practice and they build those skills.
(00:41:59)
Elana:
It can more intelligently build scaffolds that are personalized to the student, which is really cool. When it comes to AI, or even if we're talking about augmented reality, virtual reality, even any emerging EdTech, all of these things are just a tool in the toolbox, too. And when you talked about, "Hey, we were doing the SDGs and teaching about those things," what if they used augmented reality? What if they used AI? They can choose and use that to expand or demonstrate their knowledge, which is exciting. too. It doesn't have to be embedded in an EdTech tool that you use every day.
(00:42:39)
Rachelle:
Right. The students, whenever they were at that STEM camp doing the projects, I was very excited just to be able to hear what their ideas were. And it was unbelievable, because the parents came in on the last day, and the students were all in their groups and did a gallery walk. And to hear these ninth-grade students – and one was from fifth grade, because there were siblings there to hear what their ideas were. And in some cases, these students didn't come in knowing what is out there as far as AI capability for some of the technologies that they were proposing. But they're like, "Well, what if we had this? And this is how it worked to resolve this issue?" And I'm thinking, "That already exists." It's not like these kids knew that. So it gives them that kind of opportunity to innovate, to be creative, to be curious for learning. It definitely boosts student engagement.
But then beyond that, tying in the SDGs, in that case that global awareness that it's helping them to build. But it also, for teachers who were involved and then even just taking that home to their parents and families, realizing for a long time people thought AR/VR was just a gimmick. It was going to go away, it was just for fun, there wasn't anything, a learning potential in it. And the other part of it is sometimes educators, including myself, I thought, "I'm just a Spanish teacher. I can't use this in my classroom." And then one day about four or five years ago, my students in Spanish said, "Hey, how come we don't get to do the cool AR/VR stuff?" And I was speechless. I had no answer for them. And I had never thought about it.
So what did I do? I dove right into CoSpaces. And I had no idea how it was going to work out, but there were so many benefits. I did it for them to practice their Spanish, but in the process they were collaborating, they were building relationships. It was boosting student engagement. There were all of these other benefits that weren't part of my original plan, but it gave me that kind of push to start bringing that into my classroom. Because prior to that, just a Spanish teacher, no, I'm a Spanish teacher. I can bring these things into my classroom. And the struggle for some is, "Well, I don't know what to do with it." The thing is you don't have to because the "wow" is already there. You just need the purpose and the why. What's it going to help you to do differently, to provide better for your students or to help them to do that they can become more creative and not just sit-and-get, to actually experience and immerse in an environment? So it's a lot of fun, and it's something that I think teachers, if you're looking for something new to try, why not dive into one of those?
(00:44:59)
Elana:
And it's so true. What you said is that there's so many pieces of technology out there that we can use in the classroom, but you will never know them all. You will never know them in and out. And a student will always use them differently than how you thought they would use them. They'll find the different nooks and crannies, they'll find another way and go. "Did you know what could do this?" "No!" So you have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable of not knowing everything. And I know a lot of educators are moving down that path, especially since COVID, but technology, whether it be AR, augmented reality, virtual reality, AI, is really here for us to be able to guide and explore and be curious alongside our students, but give them guide rails, too, to make sure that they understand this is opening up the doors of what digital citizenship is, or is citizenship free, or [inaudible 00:45:53], really, how do we do this in a responsible and ethical way going forward and be a part of the conversation? And they will never be a part of the conversation if they don't get the hands-on aspects of what it is and what it can do, right?
Rachelle:
Right, right. Couldn't agree more with that.
Elana:
I know that we could talk about all of this forever. For those of you that want to dive in more, we'll link to some of Rachelle's blogs. She has getting started resources, she's got all sorts of things. We'll list all of the tech tools that we talked about and potentially even more, if you're like, "I want to try that, I want to try that." We'll put it all in the Show Notes. So don't worry.
I want to talk about – to talk to our other audience. So we have a lot of EdTech folks in the classroom, a lot of educators in the classroom, that just want to be more innovative or a little more open in their mindset, but we also have EdTech professionals and EdTech leaders, right? So these are the startup folk that like to listen and talk and understand where educators are at. They use this podcast to do that, but I'm going to give you just an open mic here to just – do you have any advice for them, and specifically, what would you like to see them incorporate more, AI or other technologies? Or do you feel like they're kind of providing the things that classrooms need? These are all big loaded, big questions.
(00:47:14)
Rachelle:
I was just thinking that. I was like, "That's a loaded question right there." I think there's a – We could spend another three hours talking about this, but I think the biggest thing is being able to communicate with the people that you're trying to help or to serve, regardless of what you do. So, for me, asking my students, if I'm trying a method or a digital tool in my classroom, like, "What did you like about this? What did you not like about this? What did it help you to do?" Any of those types of things.
And for people who are running these companies or coming up with a tool, and often what I found in my conversations, and I'm sure you find this, too, is sometimes these tools and apps that are being created are not being created by people who are educators. Sometimes it's parents, because they saw some type of a need, or it's somebody who has a business component of it, and they see this need in education. So they're kind of trying to make that transition or add onto it. But I think the key is having a space to communicate and being open about and asking teachers for what they need. One of the questions I get a lot is, "What are the other tools that are out there that have AI in them?" Or, "Are there more coming?" Or, "Can you talk to companies and ask them?"
And if it's something that can be done that can really facilitate or make things faster for teachers so that, that frees up time where they can have more time with students, or if it's something that enables teachers to communicate better with families, or however it can enhance it, then I think definitely you want to go for it, because the idea is constantly improving on what we're doing and using our classrooms. But to sum it up, I think it's just the communication, having a way to ask teachers, "What do you need? What could be better? What do you like?"
And some companies do that. You may get this, too. And anybody listening might get those surveys. And sometimes there's an enticement like, "Hey, there's going to be a winner of an Amazon car." There's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes you're lucky and you actually win that Amazon car, but when they ask specific questions and even the open-ended questions like, "What is something that you need in your classroom that would enable you to provide more ways for students to communicate or to create or collaborate, or whatever it is?" And then actually taking that into consideration and continuing to refine what it is that you're offering, I think that's the key.
(00:49:35)
Elana:
And you said two things that really resonated. One is, think about your goal first, your instructional goal, your learning goal first and not use tech for tech's sake. Sometimes we do get excited about, "Oh my gosh, it can do this. It can do that." But think about what are you trying to accomplish, and can it truly enhance learning, and maybe down the SAMR model. And I know there's lots of other modifications of the SAMR Model now, but really, instructional goals first is really a great way to look at it.
(00:50:07)
Rachelle:
I couldn't agree more. That's not something that I realized years ago, which is another one of the things like, a new tech tool and dive right in and students are engaged, and I was totally wrong about that, but really thinking about the why behind it.
(00:50:20)
Elana:
You also talked about listening, and so many guests on our show have talked about the number one piece of advice they'd give to EdTech professionals is just to listen as much as possible. And I'm thinking specifically from Serena who came on from Soundtrap Education, but so many other guests, and we'll put that in the Show Notes, too. Because it's really powerful hearing from her who just got out of the classroom and say, "I really need y'all to listen to educators as much as possible." And you gave some examples, but at LCG, one of the things we do is build community because we fundamentally believe if you don't have a way to connect in a meaningful way to educators, you're never going to create a product that really resonates or makes an impact, right? And one of our colleagues, Porter Palmer, says when she talks to people and say, "Do you want to build community?" Or, "Do you think you have a community?" She asks, "Name five educators, but don't just name them and what they do, name their spouses, name what they're passionate about, what their struggles are." And if you can't even do that as an EdTech founder, you don't have a deep connection to your audience, you don't understand their struggles. When they do have those celebrations or wins, all of the things is from a marketing perspective, we need to talk in a way that resonates with educators and provides value.
So I'm sorry, I'm getting on my soapbox of people who've inspired me. I know we are reaching the end here. Rachelle, we ask all of our guests this one question. And I think because it's so positive and practical, and no matter if we're in the thick of a pandemic or getting out of it or starting school, whatever it may be, we always need ways to pick ourselves up, because life is hard. It's challenging in the day-to-day, but it can be so rewarding. I'm wondering, what do you do? Because you are going a mile a minute. What are the things you read, you physically do? What are the things that keep that pep in your step when things are not going so well?
(00:52:20)
Rachelle:
I definitely need some of that pep in my step on some days. I've gotten better about, especially in the summer, but even during the week when I can, starting the day with a routine, sitting down and reading. I have a book outside on my deck that I make a cup of coffee, the phone stays in the kitchen, because otherwise I'm looking at it every five seconds, and I sit outside and I read. I make sure that during the summer, I get outside and take two walks a day. Even if they're a short walk, and even during the school year, I say to people, "If you have your planning period, get out and walk around your school building just, one, to stretch and to move." But that gives you a chance if you see the learning that's happening, you run into your colleagues that you don't even realize you still teach in the same building because you're always so busy.
Other parts of your day – Have days where you don't set up meetings, or it's time-specific for your family and your friends, and have something to look forward to each day. For me, I don't know if it's a good thing or bad thing, there's a bakery at the end of our school parking lot, that's a very famous one. And this school year, I decided that one day a week, I was going to order on my phone and walk outside – weather, of course, had to be decent, at least not raining or snowing – and get myself just a latte or a bagel sandwich. Just that was something to look forward to. Or celebrations with my students for something completely ridiculous at times like, "Hey, tomorrow we're going to have ice cream." "Why?" "Because it's Thursday." I don't know. If we did that and it was just small, small things that make a difference in what can be a challenging time, but making sure that you set aside time for yourself each day, even if it's five minutes to just walk outside, get some air and come back in and get right back to the work.
(00:53:58)
Elana:
I love that because you're in the classroom or you're in education technology, I am like, "Yes," I try to do walks too, but it's nice to be able to create and almost hold yourself accountable and say, "I'm going to do this once a week." And it becomes normal, and then maybe other people will catch onto it as well. Do you read any John Grisham any more?
Rachelle:
I haven't in the longest time, and it's because I started to read books around education. The first one being Teach Like a Pirate on my way to ISTE in Philly in 2015 on the train, I was doing a Twitter chat, which was new to me. I was reading this book. I'm like, "This is amazing." And since then, it's been all education-type books, and Mary Higgins Clark was another one that I had read, and I was at a conference and the woman was in the elevator, and she was kind of running the elevator up and down. And she was sitting on a stool and she was reading a Mary Higgins Clark. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, this brings me back to years ago when I used to wait for that next book to come out." But I'm going to have to now look one up. That's going to be my next thing.
(00:55:05)
Elana:
Well, Rachelle, how can people get in touch with you? And any resources you'd like to share, we'll also put them in the Show Notes. But if you want to put a shout out to some of the resources you'd like to share with the audience, you can do that now, too.
Rachelle:
Well, I'm pretty consistent across all things. Twitter, Instagram, it's R-D-E-N-E-915. If you add the Gmail to that, that's my email. If you put the www and the com around it, that's my blog site. And then I have a community on Facebook, on my own Facebook, but also a Thrive in EDU community on Facebook as well that I invite people to join in. If you're looking for a way to connect with educators around the world and to have some fun, too, and to drop in the work and the things that you're learning.
Elana:
And just to resay that, it's Thrive in EDU and I believe you also have a Twitter hashtag and a chat, right?
Rachelle:
I do. Lots. All the things, right?
Elana:
Yes. But she's consistent. So that's R-D-E-N-E-915 on all the things. So, I thank you so much, Rachelle, for taking the time. I know how busy you are, but jeez, you've in 45 minutes have given us resources, hope – I'm speechless. So I really appreciate you. I know the audience will as well. For all of you listening, you can access this episode's Show Notes at leoniconsultinggroup.com\25. 25, I don't know. We sometimes lie and say, I wish I was 25 again, this is 25. For detailed notes on anything that she spoke about, I'll throw in some helpful things, because what we try to do on these podcasts is get you excited and interested. And then we give you the resources to start charting your own path along the way too. So thank you, everyone. We will see you next time on All Things Marketing and Education. Take care.
Thanks so much for listening to this week's episode. If you liked what you heard and want to dive deeper, you can visit leoniconsultinggroup.com\podcasts for all Show Notes, links and freebies mentioned in each episode. And we always love friends. So please connect with us on Twitter at Leoni Group. If you enjoyed today's show, go ahead and click the subscribe button to be the first one notified when our next episode is released. We'll see you next week on All Things Marketing and Education.
[End of recorded material 00:57:29]
Elana Leoni, Host
Elana Leoni has dedicated the majority of her career to improving K-12 education. Prior to founding LCG, she spent eight years leading the marketing and community strategy for the George Lucas Educational Foundation, where she grew Edutopia’s social media presence exponentially to reach over 20 million education change-makers every month.
Rachelle Dené Poth, Guest
Rachelle Dené Poth is an EdTech consultant, presenter, attorney, author, and teacher. She teaches Spanish and STEAM: What’s nExT in Emerging Technology at Riverview Junior Senior High School in Oakmont, PA. Rachelle earned a Juris Doctor degree from Duquesne University School of Law, a Master’s in Instructional Technology, and is currently pursuing a second doctorate, focused on Educational Technology. An ISTE Certified Educator and a Microsoft Innovative Educator Expert, she is a past-president of the ISTE Teacher Education Network and has served on the Leadership team of the Mobile Learning Network for five years. Rachelle received the ISTE Making It Happen Award in 2019, as well as several Presidential gold and silver awards for her volunteer service to education. She was named one of 30 K-12 IT Influencers for 2021. In 2017, Rachelle was selected as the Outstanding Teacher of the Year by PAECT (the Pennsylvania Association for Educational Communications in Technology, the PA affiliate of ISTE) and by the NSBA as one of the "20 to Watch" educators. Since 2019, Rachelle has written seven books. Her newest, Things I Wish [...] Knew, includes the voices of 50 educators from around the world. She has also contributed to eight other books related to education. She presents regularly at state, national, and international conferences, and provides professional development and coaching for educators. Rachelle is a columnist for Getting Smart and a blogger for Defined Learning and NEO LMS. Her podcast is ThriveinEDU (), and she hosts a PBL Podcast by Defined Learning on the BAM Radio Network. Rachelle is also a host of ThriveinEDU Live and leads a community of educators on Facebook.
About All Things Marketing and Education
What if marketing was judged solely by the level of value it brings to its audience? Welcome to All Things Marketing and Education, a podcast that lives at the intersection of marketing and you guessed it, education. Each week, Elana Leoni, CEO of Leoni Consulting Group, highlights innovative social media marketing, community-building, and content marketing strategies that can significantly increase brand awareness, engagement, and revenue.
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