This interview was originally recorded on April 8, 2022, as part of Leoni Consulting Group’s All Things Marketing and Education Podcast.
Access this episode's show notes, including links to the audio, a summary, and helpful resources.
[Start of recorded material at 00:00:00]
Elana:
Hello, and welcome to All Things Marketing and Education. My name is Elana Leoni, and I’ve devoted my career to helping education brands build their brand awareness and engagement. Each week, I sit down with educators, EdTech entrepreneurs, and experts in educational marketing and community building. All of them will share their successes and failures using social media, in-bound marketing or content marketing, and community building. I’m excited to guide you on your journey to transform your marketing efforts into something that provides consistent value, and ultimately improves the lives of your audience.
Welcome everyone to this episode of All Things Marketing and Education. I’m Elana Leoni, and I’m the CEO of Leoni Consulting Group. And today is a really fun day. I can’t wait to get talking to our guest today. Ms. Shana, not Shayna. So Shana.
Shana:
[Laughs]
Elana:
And I remember the way you were introduced to me from your friend Natalie. She’s like, “Shana like Banana.” [Laughs]. So Shana Bull, to share all of her awesome knowledge around really all things social media. And for all of you listeners that listen to lots of our podcast episodes, thank you mom only. [Laughs]. We don’t talk about social media as much. And that’s why I was super excited to have Shana on board. She has a background in EdTech as well. I met Shana when I was at the George Lucas Educational Foundation way back in the day. And Shana’s team at the time was an EdTech startup called Collaborize, right? Collaborize.
Shana:
That was the product. The business was actually called Democrasoft.
Elana:
Oh, yes.
Shana:
But Collaborize Classroom was the product. And they wanted to be kind of a social platform for educators to provide lesson plans, and stuff like that, and –
Elana:
Yeah. I just remember y’all did like a video or something. And Natalie was like, “Stop, collaborate, and listen.” [Laughs]
Shana:
Hell, yeah. Her and I did – you can still find it – I don’t – on, like, SchoolTube. But the two of us did a rap, poorly, and educators remembered that. So when we went to ISTE for the first year, we had people come up to us. Knowing that video. [Laughs].
Elana:
So, let’s rewind. Shana and her team is at Skywalker Ranch where Edutopia was housed at. And we’re having a meeting about I-have-no-idea, something education. And our teams kept in touch. And I think, Shana, you were the one, maybe with Natalie, that came up with the idea of EdTech Karaoke. And you came up to us and said, “Hey, do you want to be a part of this EdTech Karaoke thing that we’re thinking about doing it for ISTE? One of the Lucas EdTech conferences coming up. Is that correct?
Shana:
That is correct. I know EdTech Karaoke was – there was a tech karaoke at a different event. And I thought, "Let’s do EdTech Karaoke." And so we had, I think, three or four sponsors. And there were about 200 teachers that came to that first karaoke party. We had a photo booth, we had karaoke, we had, I think, everybody got one free drink. And it was a really fun party.
Elana:
Yeah. I mean –
Shana:
I know they’re still doing it at Etsy. Or ITSY, sorry. [Laughs]
Elana:
Everyone makes the – that acronym is so hard for people.
Shana:
[Laughs]
Elana:
Supposing – what’s the name – they have no idea about this acronym. It’s ISTE. So people, Etsy, ISTY.
Shana:
ISTE. That’s what we called it back 11 years ago, so.
Elana:
So, anyways, this event is now going on still. It made such an impression in the EdTech market, that it now is the biggest party at ISTE. And sometimes you’ll also see it at Q, and other EdTech events, too.
Shana:
Wow.
Elana:
Our first was in Philly, and it was, like, maybe ten-something years ago, who knows? Gosh, I just remember, like, we had, like, Kristina Ishmael and George Couros, and they were like dancing on the booths, on top of it. And it was just – we didn’t have any room. Because we didn’t – I didn’t think like we’d have this many people.
Shana:
No.
Elana:
We only had half the restaurant, remember?
Shana:
We ended up taking over the entire restaurant. And what’s funny is, I remember, yeah. It was like when the first or second Adele album came out, and she belted that "Rolling in the Deep" like she was Adele on stage. And I was in shock. And to this day, I remember that moment.
Elana:
I do to. And I remember – I actually remember how scared she was to go up. And right, right before.
Shana:
She’s beautiful.
Elana:
And for those of you that don’t know Kristina, Kristina Ishmael, she’s now the deputy director of the Office of EdTech. We’ll put her bio in the thing. But it’s just amazing to be a part of educators’ journeys for so long. And I feel like EdTech Karaoke was the beginning of that for me.
I want to introduce Shana a little more properly, and then we will get into what we’re going to be talking about. And please stick around. I think if you’re an educator you will learn a ton about how to promote yourself, your books, any kind of local event you’re having. And from on the EdTech side, I mean, this is also really designed for you. I feel like social media’s the one thing that is in everybody’s lives. But we don’t really know how to use it. And I would say use it for good. So we’ll get into all of that.
So I obviously kept in touch with Shana on and off, because she is a good human. And she’s a brilliant marketer. I follow her on all the channels, and we’ll get you all that contact information. But I get into –
Shana:
I don’t know about all the channels. But, no. [Laughs]
Elana:
Yeah. I mean, but you’re in there every day. And that’s what social media’s about, is that pulse of just trying new things. And not getting discouraged.
Shana:
You know what the funny thing is? I’m not in there every day. I just look like I am. [Laughs]
Elana:
Yep. The art of scheduling. OK. So Shana is beyond being past life in EdTech. She is a best-selling children’s book author. And so we’ll talk a little bit about if you have a book, how you can promote it. She’s a freelance writer, she’s a digital marketer, of course. She is based in the Bay Area, also with me. She is also a cancer survivor. She’s a wife, she’s a mother. I am so excited to have her on the show. Because she also is passionate about helping small business owners and marketers just build their confidence and understand what social media is.
So a lot of times, our team works with people that kind of already know what social media is, know they need it, but you might work on the other spectrum of just, like, what the heck is social media? How do we use it for small business owners? How do we make sure that we’re not spending a ton of time on it? So I’m excited to get into that. So, we will be talking about the latest trends in social media. So we just recently went to a conference, Social Media Marketing World. And we’re going to be incorporating a lot of lessons, so I might be talking a little bit more in this episode than you’re used to. Usually I just interview awesome people, and I don’t have anything to say, because I don’t know anything-ish. [Laughs] And this one I can talk social. Exciting.
Shana:
Exactly. [Laughs]
Elana:
So we’re going to talk about some trends. And then we’ll get into some cool things, like I mentioned, around how to promote a book. So if you’re an EdTech company, or somebody as an EdTech innovator, you might be a teacher that had a book. You might have a friend that has a book. That might be really exciting. And then tips and tricks to promote things that are local on social media. So Shana, with that intro, I am so excited to have you on this show. And feel free to add anything I missed.
Shana:
I’m excited to be here. And I will be honest. All I remember from visiting the Skywalker Ranch was the amazing cheese in the cafeteria. And I still have like an original Funko Pop of Princess Leia that I bought from the Skywalker Ranch, like, store. And I bet it’s – if it was in the box, it would be worth a lot of money. Because there’s a million different versions of Funko Pop Star Wars things. So.
Elana:
Yeah. The story – what’s interesting is that – so you, where you went was Big Rock Ranch, correct? Not –
Shana:
I went to both. I went to – I saw – I went to Skywalker Ranch and, like, the new campus, or new 10 years ago. That they did a lot of animation production.
Elana:
Got it.
Shana:
Like there was – there was a certain statue from a movie Return to Oz. That I don’t think we’re allowed to talk about.
Elana:
[Laughs] Awesome. So let’s jump into social media. I know that a lot of our listeners are curious on what the heck is happening in all these social platforms all of the time? What about these algorithms, where is the big play? What – I get this question all the time – like, where should I be devoting my energy in terms of social channels? All of these things. So we both went to a conference called Social Media Marketing World. And got to hear from experts. And really just understand the trends of what’s truly happening now. And, Shana, do you want to talk a little bit about maybe the conference, and some takeaways that you had? And I can build on that.
Shana:
Absolutely. This was my very first Social Media Marketing World. Even though I’ve worked in social media and marketing for 20 years, or 15 for social media, I’ve been doing it as a freelancer. So I never invested that much money into my own business. This was the first year that I said, “I need to do this. I need to go.” And to be honest, it’s exactly what I needed. I was able to network with friends and new people, and that energy that you get from learning in person can’t be replicated online. That’s – I teach classes online, so I know the difference. And there’s this energy. And it was really nice to take some time for myself and recharge my batteries, as well. I came back feeling like ready to tackle my own business. So I’m really glad I made the decision to go.
I actually wrote a blog post about some of the biggest trends and takeaways that I got out of it. A lot of it was just reinforcement that relationships matter on social media. That it’s not just about turning out content, or getting the most likes and follows. Instead, it’s focusing on genuine relationships with your audience, and then figuring out what content can be valuable to them and that they would appreciate. And then, you know, they would watch. Another big takeaway was kind of what we talked about just a minute ago. Working harder, not more. You know, investing time and energy into creating content is a lot.
You know, I’ve been doing this for ten-plus years, creating content on a daily basis. And it’s a lot of work. So using social media tools to schedule content, so you don’t have to be there every day. I literally use a kitchen timer to spend only 15 minutes engaging with people. But I do it more strategically, so I don’t get down rabbit holes and, like, find two hours going by, and not having anything to show for it. So there’s no point in putting in long hours if you’re not being productive and efficient with that time. Instead, focusing on the tools and resources to get the most out of your social media marketing efforts. And then I guess the last thing was really all that testing and experimenting, trying new things. And it’s especially important in social media, because things keep changing on us all the freaking time. So testing out different strategies, and see what works best specifically for your brand or for your own business.
Elana:
Awesome. So why don’t I – I’ll take it down and we can like, do a deep dive into each one of those things. Because I think we can get –
Shana:
[Laughs]
Elana:
We can get a little bit deeper on tools and things. But your blog, we – for everyone listening, “Oh my gosh. I wish I had that blog,” we will list it in our Show Notes, too. So stay at the end, and we will give you that link to get to our blog. Or you can just go to our website. So let’s talk about that first one on relationships. Because I actually didn’t get that as – because we went to different sessions, too.
Shana:
Yeah.
Elana:
And I haven’t been to all the sessions. But that is something I’ve harped on for many people about social media, is about the relationships you create. And the posts, if you do it well, can create value, which inherently creates trust. Which is the basis for some type of relationship if you do it in an authentic-not-creepy way, right?
Shana:
[Laughs] That’s important to say not creepy. I mean, as women it’s a little easier to not feel creepy. But for people like my husband, who is a middle-aged white guy, he is very concerned with that. And, but he’s done a really good job, specifically on TikTok, creating this community of Star Wars geeks, and connecting with them, and like, talking and just getting excited about stuff. And the funny thing is, one thing I learned at Social Media Marketing World. The more you engage on these platforms, the more those people will engage with you on your content. Which means that the more your content will be seen to more people in general.
So engaging and creating connections is important. And to be honest, I would say connections is probably the most important factor in the success of my business over the last 15 years. You know, maintaining relationships like you, or even some of the other teachers that I’ve met throughout the years. And I only worked in EdTech for two years. But I’ve kept up those relationships with some people. And funny enough, now that I am a children’s book author, a lot of those people are customers of, you know, they’re buying the book. And I’ve even had two educators write blurbs for the back of the book.
Elana:
Yeah I saw that. That’s –
Shana:
Yeah.
Elana:
– super cool. I saw it go for full circle, and I’m like, "Yeah, yes."
Shana:
Yeah. Shannon Miller, who is – I’m not exactly sure what she’s doing now. But she’s a, like, technology librarian based in Iowa ten years ago.
Elana:
Yeah. So I know our audience that might not know social media will go, "Relationships? What? What do you want me to do? Like, hold hands with people?" Like let’s break it down to, like, what do we actually do. And maybe I’ll start with, like, so if you have a Twitter account, and you are a brand – for a lot of you, you might be your own person. And being behind a brand is a little difficult. You can still create relationships with it. Lots of companies do it differently. But, you know, if we’re manning a social account, specifically let’s get into Twitter. We’re going to go through all of our mentions. When people are talking about you, make sure that, you know, especially in education, that is such a gift. Educators are the most busy, humble people ever. And they’ve taken time out of their day to say, “Hey, what’s up? Blah-blah-blah, I use your product.” So we want to immediately, like that, we’re following them. We want to respond back with something authentic and appreciative. If it’s, like, we use your product, or if it’s a customer service, we’re on it. We might want to look at their profile and say, “Hey, I realize you’re a Star Wars geek. I am, too.”
Shana:
[Laughs]
Elana:
Whatever. Be a human and start connecting. Add them to a list. So you can then start liking their tweets and getting involved with them, you know. Thank them on a Follow Friday. All these things you can do. That’s relationships tactics. Ready for something for another channel, Shana?
Shana:
In real life, we’re getting back out there again. And in the beginning of my career, I would, like, say yes to almost any free networking event, or lunch with, like, a colleague. I don’t have that same time any more, but, but I would always try and go to these events and connect with people. Even if I didn’t go to any classes at Social Media Marketing World, the after-parties and the connections that I made was worth the price of admission to me. Because I had a strategic plan of who I wanted to connect with outside of the people that I already knew. And I made it a point to connect with those people in person. Sometimes I just tweeted them and said, “Hey. I would love to meet up.” And we did. And then after the event, I made sure to follow up and say, “Thank you, you know, I had a good time. I look forward to connecting more.” And then I did add some of them to a Twitter list, like you just said. So then I’m able to connect with them on an ongoing basis. I’ve done this with my career in the wine industry and food industry as well, where I’ve kept up with connections after I meet them in person. And that’s been important. Because, you know, some of these people that I’ve worked with 15 years ago, I’ve worked with again and again. And co-workers have become clients, clients have become friends. And many of those have become customers of my book. [Laughs]
Elana:
Yes, yes. You never know, this crazy journey of life.
Shana:
Yeah. I didn’t know that was going to be my end game, selling people children’s books.
Elana:
[Laughs]
Shana:
But that – that’s an easy sell, you know? Adorable children’s books about bugs and with a focus on mental health issues. Taught in a fun way.
Elana:
Yeah. And we will get into that. I’m excited.
Shana:
[Laughs]
Elana:
I think the one other thing I’d like to add about relationships is do not go into social media saying, “Elana and Shana said relationships, so I have to do relationships.” Like, relationships, being relationship-driven and connecting to your audience is something that should drive you. It’s something that connects you back to your mission, to who you are. Maybe you’re an educator, and say I want to connect with other instructional coaches in California. It will transform your practice. But don’t do it for – and then from a company perspective, you want to connect to your target audience. You want to connect to your buyers, you want to connect to your users, you want to connect to people that think the same way and care about the same things you do. It helps you connect and be better as a human, as a company, all of the things. But don’t go in saying, “I got to like stuff because Elana said I got to like stuff, and Shana said this.” Like, it’s really transformative as a brand.
Shana:
I think you hit it on the – when you mentioned target audience. I think that is extremely important. Because you can go on social media and talk to people all freaking day, but if you’re not talking to the right people, then it doesn’t matter. Then it’s just a waste of time. So really planning ahead and figuring out what your niche is, where you fit into this bigger space. Even specifically in EdTech. Because there’s lots of different variations within that space. So figuring out how your brand, and how you fit in, is important. And then, you know, finding those connections that you have with people, you know.
Elana:
Yes.
Shana:
Whether it’s Star Wars or wine. I don’t know if I told you this. I did work at Collaborize when we went to Philadelphia. I brought a case of wine and beer, and I gave that to some educators, because it was Russian River Brewery, which is a really famous brewery known for Pliny the Elder Double IPA that you can’t get just anywhere. So I brought it to educators that I knew liked beer. [Laughs] That was important, I knew they liked beer. Because we already connected about it. And I brought them a bottle of beer. And they remembered that. [Laughs]
Elana:
Yeah.
Shana:
So finding your niche, and finding what connections you have with people.
Elana:
That is so important. And then on top of that, well, just add on, like, finding your niche, too. So if you – say you’re an EdTech company and you’ve got multiple audiences, great. Follow both of them, interact with them in different ways. The way you can do that is look up, you know, some people if it’s on Twitter. There’s certain lists. You can do Twitter advanced search. Facebook is a bit different in this world, but you can have Facebook groups that attract the audience that you want as well. You can use hashtags.
Shana:
You can join Facebook groups.
Elana:
You can join Facebook groups, you can have hashtags for TikTok, for Instagram. So there are ways to really narrow into your target audience. And I think what Shana said is really key, is making sure that you are doing that, and you’re not talking to the wrong people, or jumping on trends that may not have anything to do with your brand.
Shana:
[Laughs] Speaking of TikTok, [laughs] no. And if you’re – if it doesn’t make sense for your brand to be on something like TikTok, then don’t be on TikTok. Even though that’s the cool thing that everybody’s talking about right now.
Elana:
Ooh, OK. So TikTok.
Shana:
[Laughs]
Elana:
We’re talking TikTok now, and I think your second takeaway was efficiency and tools.
Shana:
Yes.
Elana:
I went to one session that blew my mind around how to be efficient on TikTok. But also what you said, make sure you're talking to your brand with the trends and things you see. I forget her name, I’ll put it in the Show Notes. But she was amazing because she had a whole production crew, and said, “Hey, I look at these trends, I identify what trends I want to actually do, we have a comp onboard system in Asana, and we just cue up all the stages. Then I crop the video, and in various stages, and I go out and say, 'OK. How can I make this a YouTube short? How can I make this an Instagram reel?' And it originally was a TikTok? And that inspired me. Because it was –
Shana:
I was at that class. Alisa or something like that. Just put it in the Show Notes, because I’m going to butcher her name. But, yeah. That whole class was how to create one video and send it to different platforms. You don’t need to recreate the wheel over and over again. In fact, I create a lot of video content, and I will re-share it in different ways. On Instagram or Twitter, whatever.
I recently did this with a picture of – or a video, sorry. Hello! – a video of my husband opening up a little ball of fried Burrata. If you guys don’t know what that is, it’s cheese, it’s delicious, it’s happiness. Even better when it’s fried. [Laughs] And he’s opening it up, and I took this short video, I added a few other videos from the dinner that we had. And I made one video. Then I created another video of just the Burrata. And I’m just testing out to see what works the best, if it’s long video, short videos, stuff like that. And you can recreate and re-use your content over and over again. You don’t need to be constantly creating new content. I have one image that I use every, like, three months that I use. I may add different captions to it, but I use the exact same photo of a cheese. I think cheese is going to be – come up a lot today. [Laughs] I don’t know why. That is part of my brand, I guess. And I reuse it every three months. And so far no one’s called me out on it.
Elana:
Yeah. And I think the key is to make it not annoying, but make sure it’s still valuable. And so, even just before this show, I was talking to our producer Jordan about just how we promote our podcast. And many of you might follow us on Twitter @LeoniGroup. And you’ll see that we have a heavier promotion in the beginning, because it’s new. But we never have the same tweet or the same Facebook post. Or the same LinkedIn post. So it’s different ways to approach it and talk to different people. But there’s a heavier promotion when something’s new. But then we’re looking in the future and saying, “What’s timely in the future? How can I align this good content with timely things?” Or, like Shana’s method is, too, is all – let’s just sprinkle it out every three months afterwards for a bit. And by that time, I already know what types of posts work better, and what language works better, so.
Shana:
How do you know that, though? [Laughs]
Elana:
Let’s go into testing.
Shana:
Good – really bad segue. [Laughs] I’m not good with segues.
Elana:
Good save. So I know we can talk a lot about efficiencies and tools, but you want to start looking at how do we program effectively, how do we schedule? So if you are in social media, you should have some type of programming tool. There’s ten million of them out there. We use Sprout Social. There’s Agorapulse, there’s Buffer, there’s Hootsuite, there’s – gosh, there’s ten million lists. We could put a link to the Show Notes of all the tools. But tools should match your budget. But also what you need it for. Don’t get something super fancy that you’re not going to use, like, 100% of it. Just start small. Just make sure it can program stuff.
We like tagging stuff. Not to – this also segues into testing a little bit. But we love tagging stuff, because we can tag what we talk about based on topic, and we can tag based on type of post. And whatever else. Maybe it’s a campaign or something. But when you tag, you can look at things in aggregate and see how they perform. So you can say, “Oh, you know, your audience on Twitter versus Facebook. So Twitter, they actually really like stuff around project-based learning. And they love worksheets.” But on Facebook, they really love the feel-good stories and the videos about teachers using your product in action. Whatever it may be.
Shana:
I want to hear more about this tagging. Do you do it like in a link? Or is it a post?
Elana:
No. We add tags, and I think in other companies they call them labels. But there’s tagging functionality within Sprout, also in Agorapulse and a bunch of the other – like the more advanced tools. But you can also do tagging in links, right? So you can do UTM encoding.
Shana:
That’s what I know.
Elana:
Yeah. But this way, Shana, it allows you to look at not just – so UTM encoding gives you the data in the Google Analytics, right? So that’s website focused.
Shana:
Yeah.
Elana:
Whereas tagging your tweets or your social posts get you in the platform itself, right? So you can look at your cadence of a certain thing, the impressions, all that in-platform native data.
Shana:
You go really into detail with data. I love it.
Elana:
We try. I mean people –
Shana:
I love it. I love it.
Elana:
I mean, people bother us, so, you know, we’ve got to [laughs] go get them.
Shana:
It’s important. I mean, that’s the one thing I’ve noticed over the years that – and this is something that someone tweeted. That the most important thing about social media is the amount of data you get. You – we live in an era where we know if our marketing efforts are working or not. If we check, we are able to look at the data. And even using the platforms themselves, I – once a month I take a look at what’s performing the best on Instagram. Instagram’s kind of my go-to platform versus Twitter or Facebook or LinkedIn. Just because that’s where my community is the most engaged. So I look at what posts perform the best. And I’m not looking at likes. That’s fine. Likes are kind of an indicator of what does well.
But I like looking at comments and seeing which content, which videos and images that I put out get the most amount of comments. Because to me, that means that a post did well if I get a lot of comments, and lot of engagement and back-and-forth comments. So I take a look, and I go, “OK. Is there a trend here?" You know, maybe the stuff that got the most comments are all quote-images, or maybe they’re all pictures of me, or maybe they’re all pictures of cheese. I don’t know. Whatever it is, and then I’ll do more of that.
Elana:
Yeah. I love that. I think for all of you that feel like this is slightly overwhelming, I think if you just hear what Shana’s talking about, she starts small. And think about the things that matter to you most as a brand. And start with a couple, don’t – Because the best thing about social media is how much metrics and data are available. But it’s also the worst thing. Right?
Shana:
[Laughs] You can get – you can go down a rabbit hole in data, as well.
Elana:
You are overwhelmed. So we will put in the Show Notes as well a link to our social media metrics boot camp series. And we tried to hone in on, like, what matters most. But again, I want you to think, as a brand, what matters to you? Because you might really value comments. And you want to weight those more than just in general reach for brand awareness that you can get on most social posts in terms of impressions. So that is really key. Hone in on what works for you from a metric and testing perspective.
Shana:
Exactly. And that, you know, I work with a lot of small business owners that are completely overwhelmed with social media, that they don’t even start sometimes. They’ll go weeks without posting, and then all of a sudden they’ll post like ten different posts in one day. And I am always trying to encourage people to use social media scheduling tools, and planning ahead, so that you’re not, you know, forgetting to do social media. Like you said, I – it looks like I’m on there every day, and I’m not. I batch-create my content where I spend a few hours each – at the beginning of each month to look ahead and work with my social media manager.
About six months ago, I actually have a contractor that I work with. And she helps me create content so I’m not doing it on my own. So it’s the very first time that I have outsourced help. Because post-cancer my brain just – for the first year, just didn’t work like it used to. My brain was a little foggy. So I acknowledged that I needed help. That was hard, but I acknowledged that I needed help. And I hired someone to help me. And that’s made all the difference. So I just want to let people know that you can also, you know, hire someone for even a few hours a week to help you out if you feel like you can’t do it. You don’t need to hire someone full-time to do this. You can have someone help out a little bit. But we spend a few hours at the beginning of the month to figure out what is coming up, you know, what promotions we want to do. And then, we create content and schedule it out. So it’s – I think the rest of April’s already in my social media scheduler, which I use Buffer. So it’s ready to go. I don’t even have to think about it until I’m ready to start thinking about May.
Elana:
Yeah. And that’s important for I guess teachers, too. Sometimes when they come in, they just feel like there’s so much that they don’t have any time for anything. But if you do want to maybe get what you’re writing out, or you just want to elevate other educator voices, but you don’t want to do it in sporadic, like, “Oh my God, am I on now?” And you want to trickle it out, you know, like Shana’s saying, using a program scheduler’s really key. If you’re an EdTech entrepreneur, I’ve met many of you recently and all of the time being slightly overwhelmed. Because you’ve got ten million jobs. I feel you.
But how do you get started? And it just feels overwhelming to be on social. So in the beginning, what you want to do is, like, have a simple tool that, you know – Buffer is – actually has a freemium version, too. So you can actually use Buffer for free in the beginning. And if you want the bells and whistles, I think it’s like ten bucks. But –
Shana:
Six dollars per platform, which is nothing. I mean, it’s six dollars a month. Which is, I mean, it adds up. But it really is not that much. And it is really useful to –
Elana:
And at the very – like, if you said, "I’m going to devote one hour a week. What can I do in one hour a week to have something scheduled on social?" It doesn’t need to be perfect to get started. One of the things I learned and felt really just excited about at Social Media Marketing World is how much everyone just throws out stuff to see if it works. And even the presenters that were making millions off of social media, they would talk about their flops. And they’d say, “Go to my feed, yeah.” Sometimes, like, they just flop. And you just don’t know. So I – for all of you trying new things or posts or you don’t get a response, it’s OK. Just keep going. And that’s a hard –
Shana:
Trying new things, yeah. That’s one thing I’m doing a lot of is testing out things. And I’m quickly finding out what works and what doesn’t. Then I share it with my audience on Twitter and Instagram. But I think it’s really important to figure out what works for you. And stay consistent. When people hear the word consistent, they think, "Oh, I have to do this every day." Consistent means whatever it means to you. If you can only create content three days out of the week, that is better than going weeks without anything, and then posting ten times in one day. Staying consistent to you is what matters.
Elana:
Yeah, and that also trains your audience, too. So a little bit of human behavior, too. That’s really important when it comes to, like, YouTube, too. When you’re – or TikTok when you’re dropping things. Like the people are saying, “Hey, Shana makes a video on YouTube, drops it every Monday at blah. Makes a Podcast and drops it at Thursday." So that’s really important.
So I know we want to get into some other things. [Laughs] We have about so many things on Social Media Marketing World. I will say that the surprises were the resurgence of YouTube in general. Marketers are paying attention to YouTube for lots of really great reasons. We’ll probably do some blog posts around YouTube. But, you know, the longevity of how your content stays there, the algorithms that actually work for you and not against you, cough-cough Facebook. [Laughs]
Shana:
It’s true.
Elana:
So YouTube was a big – like, there were so many sessions on YouTube. And one of my most popular tweets at the conference was just a screenshot telling people, “It’s OK to be human and make mistakes.” But you can have some scripts, right? So you start out doing, you know, immediately doing the thing that they say. Don’t introduce yourself for 30 seconds, people leave you in the first ten seconds if you do that. So just knowing that where we all don’t understand or know it all, but we’re trying. And the more you try the better you get. And it’s OK if you fail. Just like we teach our kids, right?
Shana:
It’s true. I would say the most – I saw YouTube and TikTok classes the most. And for anyone who thinks TikTok is just for kids, I’m going to say that I learn about composting and menopause on TikTok. That’s my audience. [Laughs] I’m not embarrassed to say it.
Elana:
Wow. I go – I’m on GreenTok, I’m on PlantTok, I even have like, you know, the spiritual healers talk to me. I have the pep talks, I have the gay old men in Florida give me –
Shana:
So TikTok is – it really focuses on a niche. And I think that is, you know, stuff that you can take to any platform that makes sense for you. But like checking out TikTok and figuring out what you want to talk about. And also, it’s a good way to kind of understand that your content should be short and to the point. You know, using a hook to capture attention right away is something you can take with every platform. Your blog, your life, you know, when you’re doing events, you know, capturing people’s attention right away is important. And, you know, getting straight to the point.
Elana:
Agreed.
Shana:
[Laughs]
Elana:
All right. Before we get into these other questions, the one thing I just wanted to add about that conference was also the resurgence of LinkedIn in particular.
Shana:
I didn’t go to those classes.
Elana:
Yeah. Because you know my audience. So.
Shana:
[Laughs]
Elana:
For good tech, we have B2B a lot. And some B2C. But LinkedIn, for us, we have huge high engagement rates. Just a lot of impact and reach for not paying to play. So for us, I was trying to figure out how can I grab some tips and tricks? And I learned a ton. I can put a couple of them in the Show Notes. But really just making sure that you’re constantly leaning into the things that Shana and I were talking about. Relationships. Right? So you’re not just, “Hey, I got this blog post,” you know. I want a conversation. I want to get to know you. I want a bit of a story. There aren’t a lot of character limits on LinkedIn, too. There’s some great hashtags you can use. And then you need to be active in your comments, but also be active in other people’s comments as well.
Shana:
It’s true.
Elana:
You have a great comment, you can turn that actually into a LinkedIn post. That was cool. And I knew that. But it was just nice to see it and see how other people play around on LinkedIn as well. So lots of things for Social Media Marketing World and the trends. We talked about the metaverse, we talked about Web3, we talked about NFTs, all the fun things. We could spend hours.
But let’s get into localized social media marketing. Because that’s something I don’t do well, Shana, and you are great at. You work with lots of local brands in the wine industry, Sonoma County, hospitalities, so much more. And they have storefronts. And for all of you listening that don’t have storefronts, imagine you want people to go to an event. Or potentially, you know, some type of location. Or you want to target people based on a location. And I’m looking at you, all of you EdTech people trying to target California, New Jersey, Texas, Florida, New York. [Laughs] As much as L.A. Unified. So how do you begin to start targeting people in these massive platforms, you know? Like that feels like a pay-to-play moment. But you’re able to do a lot of it with social organically.
Shana:
Connections. [Laughs] You know, having your niche be local influencers. And when I talk about influencers, I’m not talking about, you know, the people that take pretty pictures and post on Instagram. I’m talking about people that actually connect with other people in the community. So if you have an event and a specific community, find the people through LinkedIn or Twitter that actually live there. And that are going to come to the event. You know. And just connect with them. And ask – just ask if they can post a link to your event. And a lot of the times, they will. This isn’t a lot of extra effort. You can create one template and send it to these people, and just ask if they can share.
Also Google My Business is a huge website, like website traffic driver that most businesses, specifically brick-and-mortar, are not taking advantage of. All businesses, I think, should be on Google My Business, especially those with a physical location. They should be posting regularly to the Google Business platform about what they’re doing, you know, periodic updates, events. Hours – that’s been a huge thing during the pandemic, because hours had been cut. So when you go to Google, it says something different than your website and your social media. And it’s just overwhelming for customers, so they’re not even going to come to you. And Google has a lot of data. And it’s pretty cool to see how many people are clicking on your posts from Google My Business. It helps potential customers, and it helps you be found in search.
Elana:
Right. So you said influencers. And influencers vary based on platform. And then, like you said, there’s a gradient of, like, micro-influencers –
Shana:
Yes.
Elana:
– to thought leader influencers, to people that take those pretty pictures and get millions of likes.
Shana:
And you know what? There’s room for everyone. I’m – in the wine industry there is the old guard of wine people that are older that don’t think that, you know, people sharing a picture of themselves with a bottle of wine does anything. But guess what? Younger audiences love that, and they love connecting with people. And so you figure out what makes sense for your brand.
Elana:
Yeah. So the influencers are great, the Google My Business is something to take a look at. Yeah, gosh, so many people do not use that. And then other hashtags are a great way to start talking to localized audiences, too. Go ahead.
Shana:
Specifically, yeah. And on Instagram or – on Instagram, because local hashtags can work. I think of Twitter as more of a national or international platform. Where if you’re really talking to local businesses, Twitter’s not necessarily the place for you. Test it out. It might work for you, depending on where you are. But, if I’m talking about people in Napa and Sonoma County, I’m not talking to people on Twitter. If I’m talking to people on San Francisco, then maybe yes I’m talking to people on Twitter. But local hashtags, like just the hashtag Sonoma County, it works. And, you know, figure out various other hashtags that make sense for your niche, that are within your local community, so.
Elana:
Yeah. Area codes work, and stuff like the random hashtags around it all.
Shana:
I use East Bay Eats a lot. And those do really well.
Elana:
Yeah. Because they’re specific, you know?
Shana:
Very specific to my niche of food and my location, so I combine the two.
Elana:
Yeah. And when I’m programming on either Twitter or either Instagram, or whatever the platform is that takes hashtag – LinkedIn also takes hashtags. Facebook technically takes hashtags, but no one is really –
Shana:
No one.
Elana:
Everyone is confused about that. The only hashtags I use now, which is interesting on Facebook, are like COVID 19, things like that. And I’ve found that those get picked up organically because they’re looking for good sources. The curators there are looking for good sources.
Shana:
That makes sense.
Elana:
So one of our clients is a leader in, like, studies around COVID. And we saw, like, exponential organic reach – I’ve never seen [laughs] this. And they – because they decided it was worthy content because they used that hashtag. Side note, but in general, hashtags can really work to help you reach audiences. Either you have a local storefront, or you’re trying to just reach certain types of people in different states and locations, too.
OK. So there’s ten million things we could talk about with that. But we’ll leave it at that. And if, Shana, if you have any blog posts around that that you want to add, we can add them into the Show Notes around how to reach people locally. I really want to get into you as a children’s book author.
Shana:
[Laughs]
Elana:
I don’t know Shana the children’s book author. I’ve followed your journey, and it was amazing to see you do this. And can you just talk to me about your story? And in particular, our audience would love to know, like, from somebody who wasn’t an author, how do you navigate how to promote your own book and get people to buy it?
Shana:
Well, both really good questions. So my story is, I – depending on when this comes out, I will either have two or three children’s books out. The end of April is when the third one comes out. The first one was co-written by my son when he was two years old. So he mostly wrote it on a trip to Long Beach that I go into detail on the randallthebluespider.com blog. But he wrote it, I asked questions and kind of guided him. And then it sat on my phone for about two and a half years.
During the first summer of COVID in 2020, I found out I had anal cancer. And so I had to go through radiation and oral chemotherapy that left me bedridden for two months. I could barely move. And so I had to say goodbye to all my clients, and I had nothing to do. So I decided to – when I was awake, I decided to research how to publish this book. Because I wanted this children’s book to be a thing. I thought it was adorable. It’s about a little blue spider who goes surfing and he gets nervous, because he wants to enter a surfing competition. His friend helps him not be nervous any more. And we got it published.
So I went the hybrid publishing route. So instead of self-publishing, or finding the publisher, I found a hybrid publisher, East 26th Publishing. She’s based out of Houston. And she helped me with the book, and I paid her. So I paid her to help me with all the details about the book that I didn’t know about. You know, how to format. She actually added the, like, break-out character, Crabby. There’s a little crab on every single page of all my books. And she came up with that idea. And it makes a huge difference in how much kids love this book. But – and she puts it on Amazon, and she knows how to format it, and all that stuff that I don’t have to think about. So I was able to pay her to help me with everything I don’t know, instead of doing the research that could be hours and hours of my time. So I paid her to do that.
When the book first came out, it was actually in April of 2021. And I had a Facebook group of dedicated friends and family members that I called my launch crew. They knew exactly when the first book was going to come out, and I had them buy a Kindle version of the book, the children’s book, on the first day. They were able to read it, and then leave a review right away on Amazon. Then they also spread the word through their own social media channels. So the most important part of the first few days of your book launch, specifically on Amazon, are those reviews. It’s harder to do with a longer book, because obviously you can’t expect 100 people to read a longer book in the first day, on Kindle or in person. So it’s a little bit harder. It’s much easier when your book is one line in 32 pages.
But the reviews were so important to the Amazon search algorithm. I’ll say that my first book has over 150 reviews, I think, somewhere around there. It has over 100 reviews on Amazon. And to this day, it still does better within the Amazon search than the second book that only has about 30 to 40 reviews. The second book didn’t do as well, because I had a lot of physical issues that were going on because of post-cancer. And it just didn’t do as well.
But starting off with your friends and family to get the word is definitely the way to get started with promoting your book. And then figuring out how your book can help people. And how you can communicate that in ten different ways. Like, literally I had a – for the latest book, it’s about picky eaters. All of my books have a different aspect of mental health issues for kids taught in a fun way. That’s important to me. So what I did was I took how this third book can help people, and I wrote it on a white board. And then I wrote different ways to communicate that in a brainstorm. I worked with my social media manager. And then from each one of those ways, there’s like four different ways of creating content. You can create a quote-image, you can create a video talking about that aspect of how it helps people. But at the end of the day, that is your value proposition to people. You know, this top-line thinking of how you can help people.
Elana:
Yeah. That’s so – I just want to stop there, because I think if you are an author, you tend to just say, “Hey, I’ve released a new book. Please buy.”
Shana:
Yeah.
Elana:
Or if you’re an EdTech company, you’re also – like, you might have books around that you’ve done that, they just say, “Hey, buy the book.” But they don’t really think about the benefits. And also teasing out parts of the book. So it doesn’t really work for children’s books, potentially, but I’m thinking EdTech, we’ve got some pretty big books, right? Like, I’ve seen, you know, my friend Lisa Highfill from HyperDocs. She promotes it, and says, “Here’s a freebie from the book. Here’s a chapter that we didn’t add.” So like giving value. But also, "What is it solving? How can it help your day-to-day?" And I love that you do that brainstorm, you know?
Shana:
Yeah. You know what the funny thing is? I have a marketing book coming out next year as well. And a lot of the same techniques happen with my children’s books. When I did the first launch, I did make it about me. It was a week after I found out my tumor was gone. So I think people naturally wanted to help me. So I used that. I mean, you know, I got to use my cancer card, I guess. So, that helped sell books. But that’s not going to – that’s not long-term. You know, the second book, people didn’t care about my cancer anymore. They cared about what was in it for them. And I don’t think I did a good job conveying that to people. And I think that’s why it didn’t do as well.
So the third book, I’m really focusing on how this book can help parents and help educators. And I think that’s extremely important. And that’s relationship marketing. Again, you know, you find out what your pain points of your audience are, and then figure out ways to create content to help them. Whether that content is a book or a blog post or a video, it all kind of comes together.
Elana:
Gosh. Really good. So, rewind that last couple sentences that you said, listen to it over and over again. Audience-driven, audience-centered, right? So what do they actually need? And it’s never about your product, your book, and this and that. It’s about the challenges, right? It’s speaking to them in the things that they look for and need.
So Shana, lord, I could talk to you for a long time. But I love how with podcasts, we can go deeper on some of these topics, too. But then we’re just like, “Let’s talk more, let’s get nerdy.” So in the Show Notes, we will be adding it. It’s leoniconsultinggroup.com\18. So we’ll be adding all the things we talked about. And Shana, if you have any extra things you think might help the audience, we’ll do that there as well.
One last question that we ask all of our guests. I think it’s incredibly related to you, because you’ve gone through so much, you do so much. I hear and follow your story being a mother, a wife, an entrepreneur, a children’s book author, a cancer survivor. There’s a lot going on in your life. I’m wondering on the day-to-day, like, how do you get up? Like what makes you get really excited and go, "I’m going to create all this social, or I’m going to tackle the day." Like what gets you inspired to keep going? Is it a book? Is it a podcast? A run?
Shana:
It’s people. What I’ve realized from Social Media Marketing World is that I desperately have missed people over the past two years. You know, in addition to the pandemic, going through cancer treatments and not being able to actually see people in person because I was immuno-compromised for a good part of it. It definitely took a toll on my mental health. So what recharges me is grabbing a coffee, or a cup of wine? A cup of coffee or a glass of wine with a friend. Or even just taking a walk around the block with my husband. Because he now works from home as well. So other people recharge me. And I think it’s important to figure out what makes sense for you. Because I know for a fact, other – or connections in person scares some people. So finding out what makes sense for them.
Elana:
Yeah. It’s the little things, really. How do you do it every day? And I will gladly have a cup of wine with you. [Laughs]
Shana:
[Laughs]
Elana:
Thank you so much for joining us, Shana. You are a wealth of knowledge. I hope that all of you get to follow her. So Shana, why don’t you just drop your socials now? Because talking about it is different than seeing it in action.
Shana:
I can be best found on Twitter or Instagram. Sharayray, S-H-A-R-A-Y-R-A-Y. And of course they’ll be in the Show Notes. I talk about social media, wine, my children’s books, mental health. All of the above. I haven’t found a niche. Actually no, I will say the good thing about the wine industry and the children’s book industry, they both have the same target audience. Moms.
Elana:
Interesting.
Shana:
They like wine and they like children’s books that will – that are quick and easy to read. Which is important.
Elana:
And it doesn’t hurt if they’ve had a glass of wine before they look at that "buy on Amazon," right? All right, thank you so much. I hope for all of you that are listening that you walk away with a couple of different things that you can try. And know also humbly that we all just are good at trying and trying again, right? So no one knows the secret sauce to every social media platform. We’re just better at sticking to it, trying, being curious. The stuff that we teach our kids, right? So I hope you walk away with a couple of tactics, or even just a slight mind shift about what social media is. And the different aspects, right? Shana talked about launching a book on social. And how do I get people to a typical storefront, you know? Those are hard to do organically, but she does them.
So again, you can access this episode's Show Notes at leoniconsultinggroup.com/18. So like 16 Candles plus two, right? So thank you everyone for your time. If you do like these episodes, consider dropping a review. It’s not just for Amazon. It really helps our podcast get seen for people that need it. OK, I will see you all next time on the next episode of All Things Marketing and Education.
Thanks so much for listening to this week’s episode. If you liked what you heard and want to dive deeper, you can visit leoniconsultinggroup.com\podcasts for all Show Notes, links, and freebies mentioned in each episode. And we always love friends. So please connect with us on Twitter @LeoniGroup. If you enjoyed today’s show, go ahead and click the subscribe button to be the first one notified when our next episode is released. We’ll see you next week on All Things Marketing and Education.
[End of recorded material 0:59:45]
Elana Leoni, Host
Elana Leoni has dedicated the majority of her career to improving K-12 education. Prior to founding LCG, she spent eight years leading the marketing and community strategy for the George Lucas Educational Foundation, where she grew Edutopia’s social media presence exponentially to reach over 20 million education change-makers every month.
Shana Bull, Guest
Shana Bull is a best-selling children's book author, freelance writer, and digital marketing educator based in the Bay Area. She is passionate about helping small business owners and marketers build their confidence with social media. She loves low-alcohol wines, elaborate cheese boards, and traveling on food adventures with her husband and redheaded son (the co-author of their children’s book Randall the Blue Spider Goes Surfing). She can be found on Instagram/Twitter at @sharayray, or at http://shanabull.com, and her book can be found at http://randallthebluespider.com.
About All Things Marketing and Education
What if marketing was judged solely by the level of value it brings to its audience? Welcome to All Things Marketing and Education, a podcast that lives at the intersection of marketing and you guessed it, education. Each week, Elana Leoni, CEO of Leoni Consulting Group, highlights innovative social media marketing, community-building, and content marketing strategies that can significantly increase brand awareness, engagement, and revenue.
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