This interview was originally recorded on August 27, 2021, as part of Leoni Consulting Group’s All Things Marketing and Education Podcast.
Access this episode's show notes, including links to the audio, a summary, and helpful resources.
Elana Leoni:
Welcome, everyone, to this week’s episode of “All Things Marketing and Education.” Today, I’m really excited to be talking with my friend Nick Provenzano. Nick has been an educator for over 15 years. He’s taught English, Social Studies. Runs Makerspaces. He also has roles in technology integration. He’s a technology integrator and Makerspace director currently at University Liggett School in Michigan.
He’s also an author and international keynote speaker. I could go on and on about everything you do in education, Nick. He writes on his website thenerdyteacher.com and, where I know him from, Edutopia.org, as well as other outlets. And then, lastly, he’s also been recognized for a thing or two. He has been recognized as the Technology Teacher of the Year by MACUL and ISTE. He’s a Google-certified innovator, a Sphero Hero, a micro:bit champion, ASCD Emerging Leader. Oh, my lord.
Nick Provenzano:
Stop, stop, stop. Don’t do all of that.
Elana Leoni:
You have been doing a lot of things. I tell you all of this because I do believe Nick has a more comprehensive, grounded view of education. It’s very different in education when you can be an author, you can be a speaker, but you’re still on the ground making and doing and in education every day. So this is why I’m very excited to talk to my friend, Nick. Nick, welcome. Is there anything else you want to add to this robust resume that I ran off?
Nick Provenzano:
No. I know, but now I kind of understand why I feel so tired all the time. I mean, jeez. That kind of explains it. It’s always so weird to have people sort of read your resume off when you do things like this. I sound fancier than I am. I’m an average teacher. I just do things and I like to keep myself busy. I’ve just fallen backwards into relationships and partnerships and the right people at the right place, starting with our first introduction back in ’09, with Edutopia. I mean, really, that’s where things started for me.
I started my website was right around then at the same time. I was like, “Oh, I’m just going to write and I’m going to get on Twitter because that’s a new thing. And it’s not a toxic firepit, at the moment. So let’s just go and hang out there just to hang out.” I joined in a chat and next thing you know, you guys reached out when you were at Edutopia. It was like, “hey, how would you like to write a piece for us?” And I was like, “Yeah, that’s awesome.” That’s really what got the ball rolling for me and really fulfilled a major dream for me.
Growing up as a kid, I always wanted to work for “Star Wars.” And a Geoge Lucas non-profit educational foundation, for me, is basically the same thing. So that was like one huge checkbox for me as part of my life’s goal. So, for that, I still owe you a very big thank you. It was from there that allowed me to be seen by just a different audience with what Edutopia’s mission was and definitely a national, international group of people seeing that.
When it comes down to it, though, I’m still the guy that gets up and goes to school and lesson plans and works directly with students and tries to innovate with them, and tries things and fails and tries again. It’s been an interesting adventure. I definitely didn’t see myself here finishing educational classes in 2001, 2002, that is where I would be. So, yeah, I’m excited to be here and share whatever my two cents is actually worth.
Elana Leoni:
I think that all of that is amazing and true, but you’re also being humble and I know that is a characteristic of a lot of people, especially in education. I do reflect on the days early on in Twitter when, you know, my previous colleague, Betty Ray, at Edutopia and I would just be on the Twitters and we’d hang out in Ed Chat and we’d talk to people like you and we would say what you are doing is truly innovative. And it’s not average. It’s frickin’ amazing. And we would DM you and say, “Write for us.” And you’re like, “Really? Me?” I had the same conversation with you, Pernille Ripp, Tom Whitby, all of these people that are just fantastic educators.
So I believe, sure, it’s timing. There’s a little bit of luck in all of these things, but it’s your quest to be this lifelong learner in it all. You know? You keep trying. You just keep going. You’re teaching in the middle of a pandemic. You keep going.
Nick Provenzano:
Good or bad, I like to keep busy with things. Part of it is my own anxiety where my brain is just constantly racing. So to keep the stupid voices occupied I busy myself with work. So that’s just part of how I self-medicate as I deal with anxiety and things like that. It’s easy. To consume media, to look at – it just keeps me preoccupied in a positive way. I remember things like that that I look up and read. The internet is vast and sometimes you have to do some deep sea diving to get to the pearls, so to speak. Again, but sometimes you have doubts and that’s one of the things I always tell people when I’m presenting is that no organization ever accepts my proposal of everything I’ve done that was terrible. No one wants to watch an hour on that. But I have hours of that. I have so many hours of presentation material on all the things I’ve done that were terrible.
So for me, I try to share my failures as much as I can just because I don't want people to believe that everything I do is gold. That’s just so far from the truth. When people ask me to share, you know, I’m always going to be honest. If things aren’t awesome, you’re going to hear they weren’t awesome. Or if they were great thoughts, great. But that’s sort of my approach. I don't know, I feel like that’s what your traditional teachers just want to hear. You’re a teacher that’s in the classroom right now, they don't need to hear fluffy, white feathered, white glove version of what the world looks like right now in the classroom. No, it’s a hot mess. And we’re all just struggling to get by and accomplish the very best that we can. I think being real in those situations makes a lot of teachers will feel better. And I think there are definitely some people that share out everything is great. You do your best. We’re in it for the kids. And all of that crap. It just drives me insane because it’s just not – first of all, a lot of it comes from people that aren’t in the classroom, which is super convenient to say how for the kids it is. You know, you have the book that you’re going to sell for the teachers that are for the kids and you’re not in the classroom. Those are the things that drive me nuts. And just because I’m in the classroom doesn't mean I have all the answers. But I definitely have a different insight to the people that are trying to tell you the show grit, or whatever educational buzz word is out there, for the kids.
Yeah, it’s for the kids, but I have my own child at home, too. And I have a wife, and I’ve got a family that I also have to support and take care of. And burning myself out “for the kids” means that I didn’t do it for my kid, which means I’m not doing it – it’s a whole big paradox. “It’s for the kids” and you have a kid. It doesn't work. So I don't know. It’s tough. The best things in life are difficult, you know. I was always sort of like taught that. The sense of accomplish that you feel after succeeding with a group of kids, or a student that was struggling or the sense of defeat when you don't reach that kid, or you’ve done something that upset a student, somehow, I carry that guilt and anxiety with me if I feel like I’ve really failed or not met the expectations that I hold for myself. And it’s not easy, you know?
Some teachers wear their heart on their sleeve and some can really shut that down and compartmentalize. And it’s not easy. I think it’s important for teachers to know that other teachers struggle with it and that it’s OK to talk about it, and to find the spaces locally or through the web to connect with those people and sort of share those insights.
Elana Leoni:
I just came across a tweet. I think I’m one of the few people that are on Twitter, quite a bit, still. Amanda Dikes actually had a Facebook post, and she’s like, “Is anybody even on Twitter anymore?” I’m like, “Yes, I am.” There’s a ton of educators on Twitter. They might not be original educators that started Ed Chat and things like that. But I went on today and I saw an educator talk about a colleague how they heard I think the district next door was like talking and trying to find this educator or like where are you? Where are you? They’re 20 minutes late to class. And the educator was sitting in her car wondering if she’s going to go to class. And she finally waited 20 more minutes and just gave the keys and said, “I can’t do this.” And it was this story that just hit me hard on Twitter. And I know that that’s not an exception, at all. It happens across the country probably all the time, especially right now in a pandemic. But just the way it was talked about and then the heartfelt comments after it still gives me goosebumps. I know that you are a veteran educator, but right now no one is a veteran educator. It feels like we’re all just figuring it out.
But Laura Bradley, who is an Edutopia facilitator and an amazing previous middle school English teacher n ow does like digital media literacy. But she was saying, you know, at least I built up a foundation to figure out how to deal and navigate the system a little more. And so she’s trying to even work with more new teachers right now. If you had to give some new teachers some advice – I know this is quite hard, blanketed. But maybe share what that means to you through.
Nick Provenzano:
Yeah. This grizzled vet sort of like world that I’ve sort of like evolved around myself – I didn’t see myself becoming this grizzled veteran. I’m close to 20, now. Over 15, but I’m at year 19 right now. I didn’t realize it until it was gone, but I had a mentor without knowing I had a mentor. My mentor was the school – he ran the school newspaper. He was an English teacher. And his name was [Jeff Gardoni ? 00:12:18]. And he was known across the country for being one of just the very best newspaper advisors and instructors. Sort of like how we do Ed Tech presentations, they have their national journalism one. All that stuff. He was just the most grounded guy in the world. And he took me under his wing and just – he showed me how the sausage was made and showed me how to navigate that and how you’re going to have big feelings about certain things. And there are certain things worth having big feelings about and that there are certain things that are not.
He would say things like, “Nick, you’re not tenured yet. You do not show up to these things.” Because they will just fire you. He looked out for me. Like telling me, “Listen, when you are tenured – like, I know you want to be involved but we need to protect teachers like you who are going to do things later on.” And just navigating parents and administrators. He got me involved – liked I helped create the website for the school newspaper so there was like a school website that we created. So there was like a digital version of this newspaper that is one of the only weekly newspapers by a high school left in the country. And he passed away at the start of the year due to cancer. And I had to – with the co-advisor at the time – we had to put together a memorial issue where people from like – who had him like 15 years ago were sending in pieces. It was like this whole big thing. It didn’t hit me until afterward business you’re so in it. Things don’t hit you until later.
There was like this moment where I totally felt lost. This was the guy I went to. This was, you know, I’d walk by his room and I’d pop in and be like, “Hey, this is going on. What do you think?” And we’d shoot the crap. Or sometimes he’d be like, “Hey, shut the door. Let’s talk about this.” He was a person that to this day still inspires me with his passion and dedication for students, and someone that had no problem admitting how flawed they were. Like, yeah, I am not perfect in these areas and I can be better in these areas.
And so my advice to new teachers is to find your mentor and recognize that before they’re gone. Close to 20 years, now, I still need that mentoring. I still need that person that I wish I could be like, “Hey, man, this is what’s going on in my class. What do you think?” Luckily, now, because of the early days with Twitter and the connections I made with teachers all across the country and around the world, there are people now that I can like text message or I can jump on a chat and say, “Hey, this is how I’m feeling about the situation. Am I crazy? Am I overreacting? What is it?” So that’s nice. And the teachers I have in my building are great. My new position now from a different building – I love the people here. It’s great. It’s not that – you know, I don't feel like [unintelligible 00:16:03]. It’s definitely weirder when all of a sudden you’re a veteran teacher. It just seems to happen overnight and kids are turning to you. “Kids.” Like “young teachers” are turning to you, and not kids.
And it’s weird because I don't have all the answers. And I still feel weird calling like the head of our school like by his first name. I still feel like the kid that’s still calling the principal by their last name because that’s what you do. I’m 42, though. It’s still very weird to me to be in a mentoring position. But I know the teachers come to me and they ask these questions and I do my best to help them. But for new teachers, you have to find that mentor. And some schools have programs. My school did. And my mentor was sweet and everything but I needed – I found my mentor. I found who I needed to help me. I encourage all of you guys to do that because whether you’re in a pandemic or not, you’re going to have problems. You’re going to have issues. And you need someone that you can trust to go to say, “I’ve screwed up. How do I make this better?” Or “I don't know what I’m doing. Where do I go from here?” I think that is what every new teacher and veteran teacher needs to navigate this professionally and really from a personal mental health space. You need those people.
Elana Leoni:
I’m sorry to hear that. That’s a hard loss. I’d like to talk a little bit about mental health and self-care. And I think this transitions well just because it’s the foundation of everything, especially right now. I know since the beginning, honestly, you were probably the top of educators that were open about mental health, especially as it related to educators and the Semicolon movement. How do we all begin to normalize talking about mental health with educators and not, like you said, like everything is good. This toxic positivity of just like brushing it off and that does so much more harm than good. And then also we have the administrators sometimes it’s like, “Hey, teachers, do self-care. By the way, this is all the extra stuff we’re going to be giving you.”
Nick Provenzano:
Yeah.
Elana Leoni:
Huge question.
Nick Provenzano:
Like a lot of things I fell backwards into advocating for the normalization of mental health issues for teachers. The year that I was recognized as the Michigan Association of Computers Users and Learning, the MACUL Tech Teacher of the Year and the ISTE, International Society of Technology Education Tech Teacher of the Year, all in the same year. The ISTE event was in San Antonio and my good friend Tim and I had sort of built this reputation for hosting these parties at bars for teachers. And it’s super weird to even say that now about parties or teachers and getting all together in this COVID world.
But we would find a bar on one of the off days before all the big companies do their parties and we would say, “Hey, can we get a discount for teachers to come and drink? We’re going to be in town on this day and we just want to have people here,” and we would claim it as a party. And they’d be like, “Yeah, sure.” It wasn’t like crazy planning, but it was like something we did or whatever.
Elana Leoni:
Nick, I have to stop you for second. Do you remember the party we did in was it Chicago? Chicago? No. Philadelphia.
Nick Provenzano:
Philadelphia.
Elana Leoni:
Philadelphia when you had the Square Space “Saved by the Bell” trivia.
Nick Provenzano:
Yes.
Elana Leoni:
It was so amazing.
Nick Provenzano:
We did the bar crawl. That was our bar crawl. And that was –
Elana Leoni:
Not Square Space. Sorry. Four Square.
Nick Provenzano:
Yeah, Four Square.
Elana Leoni:
Four Square “Saved by the Bell” trivia.
Nick Provenzano:
We created stops and check-ins and it was an opportunity – It’s good for mental health in the sense that we were trying to find things that were just fun for groups of teachers just to sort of do and engage in. I mean, our whole approach, my friend Tim and I, we call it – and it’s weird now because the phrase has really changed from when we used it, but “Edubro.” But we really meant brothers. But not the term “bro” has a very sort of toxic connotation to it, which stinks. because it was just like we were like two brothers that like, you know, we met each online and were like best friends, and it was like a totally harmless thing. But it became like a super toxic phrase and then we’re like, “Oh, we can’t use that anymore.” That’s sort of turned into a thing.
This San Antonio one I had been recognized all these awards. I’m on stage. And it was the first time I had a complete anxiety panic attack, publicly. And there was no reason for it. Everything was great in my life. Everything was wonderful. Sorry, it was Atlanta. Not San Antonio. It was Atlanta. Because now I remember where I was staying. And I had to like shut down. I had to tell Tim that I had to leave. I had to leave. I am freaking out. I called my wife. I’m like, “I don't know what’s going on. I’m like freaking out. I’m like hyperventilating.”
And at the end of the event, I was sitting in it was like an Airbnb or whatever and I wrote up this post. And it’s titled – you can find it on my site still, “I don't know what to call this post so it’s about depression.” That’s what the title of the post was. And I had battled, still, depression and anxiety. and I just basically wrote this post saying, you know, “This is where I’m at. And this is how I feel. And I feel like people don’t understand this.” And I am so afraid like what if people don't want to work with me, anymore? What if people look at me as like a crazy? I just put all of these things and I found like these great – like a comic that sort of explained anxiety for people who don’t understand it. And like depression. Just the things that I do to cope with all of this. And I posted it at like – it was super late. I remember it was like super-super late.
And all of these posts, comments came in. Like people used to comment on blogs. That’s not a thing, anymore. Back in the day people commented or sent me messages. A lot of them were, “Me, too.” They were like – I didn’t realize that I wasn’t the only one. Or you’re not alone and all of this. and it was a very powerful moment. One, for me to say I’m tired of hiding this. I shouldn’t be embarrassed of this. If you see me acting in these type of ways, I go, understand this is where I’m at. If I’m talking to you but I’m avoiding eye contact and I’m just sort of like I seem distracted, it’s because I’m fighting this internal struggle in my brain.
One of the things I like to say is depression lies. The whole point of depression as I sort of personify it as this thing that lies to you. And it’s trying to tell you how terrible you are and how much people don't really like you or imposter syndrome. All these teachers out there like I am just waiting for any day to get the email from whoever that says, “Hey, we actually thought about it. You don't know anything. Sorry it took us this long, but you don't know anything about anything. So, yeah, don’t bother contacting us.” Like it’s a real thing – a real thing that you feel.
It is a conversation that I am more comfortable having. It’s a conversation about wellness and mental health that we have with students, and it’s something that I don’t hide. And I say, “Listen, I have anxiety. I deal with depression.” Or I’ll say, “Oh, yeah, I was talking to my therapist.” It’s just normalizing it in terms of how you talk about it. The only way you normalize something is by normalizing it. I know that sounds stupid but you just have to talk about it and you have to not be afraid and we have to accept that people don’t handle the thing. I’m sure in my twenties I would have looked at me like, “Oh, he just won these awards? And he’s having this party and his life is great. And he’s freaking out? What a loser. What do you have to be sad over?” You know? You learned that it’s not what do you have to be sad for. That’s not how depression works. It’s chemicals and your brain.
For me, as you explore and you learn about your body, learn about how -- for me, dehydration is like a huge trigger for depression or anxiety attacks. And when I look back throughout my history of those moments where I felt weird or I didn’t – those were like those early signs of, yeah, that was an anxiety attack. You were 23 and you had one but you didn’t realize it. You just thought, oh, this is weird. As teachers, people love to put teachers up on pedestals and then tear them down and then put them back up. You know, “You’re the greatest people in the world. Oh, my goodness, how do you teach. And these kids have been home with me for three months. And, oh, you’re amazing. And then it’s like you’re back in the classroom, who cares? He’ll be fine. It’s not really that deadly of a disease and what are you complaining about? Why aren’t you teaching – don’t indoctrinate my kids. But teach my kids. And I’m like, “Do you know what those words mean? If I could indoctrinate your kids, I’d have them be able to write their name on their paper at the top like I’ve been telling them every single day.”
It’s easy for a teacher to feel dizzy with all of that. Mental health is an issue and it’s – when you talk about teacher burnout, you’re talking about mental health. If you’re burnt out, that means you’re emotionally done, which means that your mental health has gotten to the point where you cannot function in that environment. And so I think people don’t equate burnout with mental health, which is unfortunate. Burnout almost sounds like quitting. You know, it sounds like, “Oh, I got nothing left to bring to the table.” They don't because they don't have the capacity to process anymore of how to deal with the situation. And so I talk about mental health.
Making is one of my mental health rejuvenators. Making, creating. And there’s tons of studies that support crafting and creation, whether it’s music or crafts, and knitting and whatever it is. People for decades have known that something like knitting calms them down. And they sit and they knit and they feel better. Or gardening. Again, it’s one of those things as a teacher where they go, “Studies show that too much homework is bad for kids.” You need a study for that? I could have told you that and saved you – give me half a million dollars that you spent on that study and I could have solved all these other problems. Mental health and taking care of it is a job of a teacher to be able to with acknowledging it, but also being vocal within your school community in regards to what your administrators are asking you to do. How they’re presenting anything. Do not be fooled by the, “We’re all in this together. We’re one big family.” That’s what people say when they want you to do things that they know is probably too much. They’re trying to guilt you into, “Well, I don't want to let the family down.”
I wrote this post forever ago and I know it showed up somewhere else. Someone had a similar thought. But I was on a plane and they tell you you got to put your mask on first, before your kid. If you can’t take of yourself, you can’t take care of other people. As a teacher, if you can’t take care of yourself, how are you going to take care of the kids in your classroom? You’re not well if you’re not in a good space. That’s when things can happen. And if you can’t take care of yourself, you can’t take care of your kids. You can’t take care of your kids at home. You have to find that space internally or physically where you can take care of yourself. Because you shouldn’t feel guilty for saying, “I’m not grading those papers. I’m just going to sit here and enjoy the beautiful view out my window and watch kayakers out on the lake or on the river,” and just by happy with that. And know that they’ll get graded and the kids will be fine and the world will still spin. Enjoy those 20-30 minutes of just you time. I don't know. It still takes me some time to remember to do that. because it’s easy to be caught up and be busy. I’m lucky I’m with a partner where she likes to remind me, “You’re doing too much.” Take two or three things off your plate. You’re at that point where you’re not happy. And, you know, I’m lucky I have someone that could help me with that because I would keep myself busy to keep myself busy, instead of dealing with the issues that I’m having.
Elana Leoni:
I feel like there’s a lot of people, not just educators that. but in particular all the things you brought up, I’m like, yes, yes, yes. But the one thing that was different was the hydration. I do that and I know. But that’s also a hard part of the job being an educator. A lot of them can’t use the rest rooms at many times throughout the day, too. So they chug water at certain times. I don't think people understand how emotionally taxing it is to be educator. And then bring in this pandemic, now. And then on top of that, we have ed tech companies with all this money influx coming in. They’re just out there trying to talk to you all. But you’re just trying to survive mentally, physically, academically. All of these things. How do we help people in this world, this frantic world where we have even ed tech companies trying to talk to educators, talk to districts? What do you see them doing right that you’re like, “Wow, this really helped me.” And where do you say, “Please don't ever do this again?”
Nick Provenzano:
I would give myself as we started these conversations. At first, being asked to do something is still like such an honor, again. Edutopia wanted me to write an article. Oh, my goodness. This is so cool. I am so honored and I can’t believe this. OK, and then like I become like a regular contributor and I used to write – I always did my “Nerdy Teacher” Teacher Gift Guide.
Elana Leoni:
That was great.
Nick Provenzano:
Right, that was like a fun holiday. Again, there was this tone like a decade ago where we could just be more fun. Again, I’m the old man in the park wishing we could go back to those days. There were also tons of problems those days. Because there were a lot of people that looked just like me that were the only ones that were writing those pieces. Not for just Edutopia but in a lot of other places. That looked like me, had the same type of experience as me. I’m so happy that there’s a wide variety of diverse voices now more than ever. I think that’s good.
I have always for my site been a place of like, you have to have fun. Teachers want to have fun because things suck. Things can be miserable. And sometimes they want a blog post that just sort of looks silly. That’s just sort of like, you know: What “Saved by the Bell” character are you based on your teaching style? Stuff like that is OK and it’s fun. And telling companies that it’s OK to be silly and to have fun and to reach out to those people that can authentically provide that. The partnerships I have over the years is, you know, I’ve always steadfastly just been like, “Listen, I am very layman’s approach with things. Research is awesome and I value the people that love to do their research because they’ve become less common. Everything I’m going to share is anecdotal. That’s my research. It’s going to be very like this is my gut feeling on how these things work and I think they work great and I’m going to share that with you.
It’s trying to ask teachers to fit a box that’s not necessarily who we are, which is I think problematic. And it’s tough because when teachers are sometimes being first asked to do these things, they’re just so excited they’re like, “Yes, absolutely. I’ll change who I am to do this with you just because how cool is it that I’ve been asked to do that.” And some people will do that and others – like myself I just said, “I don't sound that way. I feel fake writing it. I feel weird writing it.” I go, I’m capable. I’m an English teacher. I can sound like anything I want. I mean, if I really want to. I go, “That’s going to be painful to write.” But also I think what needs to be done is showing value of the time a teacher is going to give you as a company. That can be through financial compensation. It could be through private compensation.
You know, there’s this whole question of like you read all of those titles after my name, Spiro, Adobe, and all that. Those are things that I already do. And then they’re like, “Hey, we got this program,” or this that. “Oh, that sounds cool.” Like I do the thing because it primarily allows me to get in contact with just other people in the community. It’s just like, “Oh, I will know more people and I can do better and cooler things.” But there are some brands that want to create it and basically just have a group of people that just create content for free and that’s the goal. Is that we’ll give them a sweatshirt and we’ll have them create tons of content and they will share it all out for free and it costs us as many sweatshirts as it costs.
Again, not everyone that does that is bad and not everyone that does that is great. It’s just what is it you’re asking for these teachers to do? And if they were non-teachers, would you be paying them in sweatshirts? That’s sort of how I try to talk to companies and say, “Listen. I get it. But I bring value to what you’re doing, just like an employee would. But you’re coming to me because an employee that you have can’t do what it is I can do. Just like you’re going to these teachers. If you need someone to write curriculum, you can hire someone to write curriculum. You can do that and it would cost you a nice chunk of money. Or you’re just trying to get the same stuff, have it basically tested for free in classrooms and then you get to claim it as your own as like, ‘Look at this content.’”
There’s a lot of ethical issues with that in terms of how – for me, I’ve only ever like signed on to do things like that are stuff that I’ve already used. I already do these things and so I’ve already used it with my kids. So if someone says, “Hey would you mind exploring this or testing this out?” I always go, “All right. I already use it. I’m like that’s cool. I’ll test that out.” And that’s something for me. And any stuff that’s like compensated, that goes to the students, it goes to the school. It’s not mine. It’s about how do you compensate thanks teachers that are really doing the heavy lifting for big companies with big budgets. And that’s tough.
Elana Leoni:
I would say you said two things. One is like recognizing that time is valuable. Educators’ time is extremely valuable. So that’s one thing. And 2) educators can do things that they cannot physically do. You need an on-the-ground perspective about project-based learning. Ind someone to talk in-depth how they use this product in a Maker’s space. And someone on their team cannot simply do that. I always say 100 percent you need to reward educators for their time. And do it financially. Don't give them a $5 Starbucks gift card and be excited when an educator accepts. So every educator if you’re listening to this, please, your time if valuable. Please do not say yes to everything. Nick talked about the dangers of saying yes and how exciting that is to be asked in the first time. But if you’re an education brand, please go in highballing educators. So if you know an educator is going to say yes to $50 for a blog post, please offer them at least 100 bucks. Their time is valuable and recognizing that they’re providing something distinctly valuable. I know this and I’ve seen brands go all over the spectrum. Oh, they’ll just won a $5 gift card to Starbucks. That’s great. Or a sweatshirt. Just saying test doesn't mean you should do that.
Nick Provenzano:
Yeah. And teachers we’re so easy to take advantage of because we’re not compensated in the traditional manner. That’s just sort of how it is. And, also, we are humble by nature. Because we’re so used to not having. We’re so used to like just like, you know, “Oh, you don't get this.” Or “We don't have the budget for that.” “Oh, I understand. OK, I’ll make do.” That’s just a normal system of things. You have long-term to the ed tech companies. It’s not even a big budget for you. I mean, that’s like the crazy thing. I’m not saying hiring these people on as full-time salaried employees. You’re not paying these people benefits and stuff. “Hey, we want you to write five blog posts. Here’s $500 and boom, there you go.” Or “Wow, these got lots of traction. Boom, here’s $750 because the engagement was huge.” Or want to write a lesson? Great. Here it is. Here’s 250 bucks for a lesson. Grand scheme you would definitely pay more to hire someone to create that content that wouldn't be as authentic on top of all of those things. So that’s just sort of what I tell people.
It’ll awkward at first, teachers. It’s awkward. It’s awkward when I finally have to say, “So we had a great conversation but we have to talk about compensation now.” It was great ideas. So we started that conversation but now we have to talk about how will my time be compensated to create and do these things? There have definitely been companies that are like shocked by that. “Oh, well, I just thought we were talking.” “We were just talking.” And now if you want those things to happen, this is what it is going to cost for me to do those things. Listen, if you don't want me to do those things, you just want those ideas, good luck.”
One of the things I’ve learned over time is that you can’t give them everything. Because sometimes you’ll lose them. That’s all we need. It was just a conversation. So I’ve been doing this long enough to know that you need to have those conversations early and say, “Hey, you know, I’m happy to talk with you just to get a sense of what we’re both able to want to do or connect with, but after that you have to say, OK, if you want to keep meeting, what is it that we’re going to do in terms of compensation? Because 1) I know what your company is and I have a pretty good idea of what you’re pulling in, like, annually. As a teacher, do your research. If Microsoft is like, “Oh, I don't have the money.” You know, you should probably think twice about Microsoft saying I don't have the money to pay you 250 bucks for a blog post. Really? You don't? Even startups. Try to just be real and just say, “Listen, this is what it’s going to take me to do. This is how much time I’m going to be missing with my family.” That’s what I say. Listen, this is X amount of hours away from time with my son. That’s what this is worth. And I only have so many hours that I schedule to be away from my son and my wife to do these things, and so it’s available to me.
And once it fills up, that’s filled up. So if you take too long and I’m working with someone else, I’m working with someone else and that’s just sort of how that goes. I know I’m by no means the norm, the average teacher. I imagine they just reach out, they do something. It’s fun and they build out their lives. But this is something that, again, I hate to say brand and it’s weird and I know this is sort of what you guys do, but I’ll never refer to myself as a brand. It’s just strange. I’m a teacher. I was “The Nerdy Teacher” just because I thought it would be a funny title for a blog and because just plain “Nerdy Teacher” was already taken on Twitter. That’s why the “the” is there. That’s it. So for all of you people that constantly tweet me and they’re upset that I don't respond it’s because you’re tweeting “Nerdy Teacher,” who is a lovely teacher in Iowa who just gets tons of my Tweets. But I’m “The Nerdy Teacher” only because the “The” was needed because someone already took it. You don't have to be a brand.
Elana Leoni:
I get so excited when we’re at parties and we’re at ITSE or one of the ed tech conferences, I have you both at the same party. It’s The Nerdy Teacher and Nerdy Teacher in the same room.
Nick Provenzano:
Yeah, the first time we met it was super fun. We had this like, “Oh, man. You got there first.” She’s like, “I know.” And she’s like, “Well, you’ve got all these followers.” And I’m like, “I know, it’s weird and I just didn’t” – again, I didn’t expect this to be a thing. My first post was like, “So I’m starting to blog. I’m getting my master’s and I think this will help with it, so we’ll see where this goes. And that was it. Here I am now talking with you on a podcast, written like five books or whatever and, yeah, it’s weird. Strange, it’s weird.
Elana Leoni:
I think go back to the ed tech conversation just to wrap it up is it fundamentally starts from a belief of knowing your self-worth. And I think educators struggle with that, especially when it’s new and shiny and someone has approached them. but just take a deep breath and really – like if society – if you feel like your district isn’t valuing you, it doesn't mean what you’re doing isn’t truly innovative and amazing. And sometimes you’re just doing the best you can and that is amazing in itself. but when someone asks you to do something, start with knowing your self-worth, then you can have the conversations. And please be aware of all the pick your brain conversations, where we have a company asking you about their product or just how it likes their space. That is so valuable. From a marketer’s standpoint, we pay people in focus groups quite a bit of money to do that. so I hope this is helpful.
Nick Provenzano:
Yeah, and that’s the tough thing. They’re definitely – if this is something you do or what to pursue as an educator and if you want to do it because you want to leave the classroom or because you’re looking for just something to fill a spot in your day or whatever because you like doing this, you’ll learn. Like there are things that – there are friends or people that I’ve worked with – I mean, you and I both know Clara, right? Clara, we’ve known her. she started off at Edutopia and she’s worked at a bunch of great companies and every single space she’s gone to I’ve worked with her somehow. Like ever since Edutopia. And you’ll develop relationships with these people. So, you know, she’s with Adobe right now and if she ever – she has messaged me like, “Hey, Nick, would you be interested in doing –” “Absolutely. I’ll make the time for that.” You form relationships because you’re a teacher. And for me, it’s all about relationships. I’ll do anything for the people that I’ve worked with.
And so one of the things in the EdTech space that people might not know is how much movement there is in spaces. Especially if it’s a startup. They get their feet wet there, then they maybe move to a different space. So some of these people I’ve worked with a lot of different companies but you’ve developed that relationship where they’re like, “Oh, we can come to Nick to do this, that or the other,” and they know what those expectations are. So forming relationships is important. I’ll give leeway to friends. But they also know how valuable the time is. So they know that when they’re having this conversation, that if we’re going to do something that, listen, we got to compensate him. Like that’s, you know. And so if you do that enough you feel that confidence to say like, “Hey, man, like we didn’t talk about it but we didn’t talk about this.” And they’re like, “Oh, yeah, we should have. It’s on my radar. We’re going to take care of this and we’re going to do this.” “Sweet, awesome.”
But you have to advocate for yourself. We tell our kids to advocate for themselves all the time and we need to advocate for ourselves and say this is what this is. And they’ll either say, “Well, our budget is this.” And then you go, “OK, I can do it for that, but next time I really need to be here because of all the things that I have going on.” And they’ll either go, “Cool,” or they’ll go, “It’s all dependent on our budget,” which is usually what it is. But if you bring a lot of stuff to the table and the SEOs and all those data things and analytic stuff that companies use, if you bring in those numbers, they’ll come back and they will ask you to do more things. and so that’s it. That’s the advice to give is, like you said, value who you are and don't be afraid.
My dad is a doctor, a nephrologist, and apparently a big kind of nephrologist when I was growing up. I had no idea. the most humble human being in the world. Turns out he has his own Wikipedia page. That’s like how big. I didn’t know this until like my high school teachers were like telling me. but he does like consulting. He did like these things. And I asked him when people started to ask me, like, “What do you charge?” The first email I ever got was like, “What do you charge to do this?” And I’m like, “I don't know. No one has ever asked me. I’m a teacher. I have a contract. What do you mean what do I charge?”
And I remember I go ask him. And he goes, “Oh, well, I just kept saying a higher number until people stopped calling.” He goes, “And then that’s what I was worth.” And I’m like, “OK. That’s about as simple and logical approach to a situation. Just keep going up until someone says no. And then you go, OK, I’m right around here.” That’s brilliant. I go, “I could do that.” And so for teachers do the same. I mean, if it’s your very first one, just like do it just for the experience. I did. OK, fun, I’ll do that. You go from there. Your worth will determined by the interaction that you get afterward. You just have to have confidence. As teachers, it’s tough. Because we have zero confidence in these type of things and ourselves. It’s worth it. And the sense of accomplishment and just like, I don't know, the people I’ve met because of it has changed who I am as a teacher and definitely impacted how I teach with my students. and I think my students are better off because of it, too.
Elana Leoni:
Yeah. And you have a combination of you blog regularly, you speak at conferences. You’re part of communities of products. And this is all just not for like, you said, a brand. This is just how you’re kind of on your path of learning. I can tell you when I started blogging regularly, here, I didn’t realize how much deep learning I was missing. How much I could really, quote, unquote, “Nerd out” on topic. I’ve been really into like hashtags on social media lately. And I never had the time to do that. But when you get to blog, when you get to speak, when you get to do webinars, that takes you into another level of understanding and depth. It’s not all about working with brands and his and that. It’s just about really loving what you do and going deeper at times.
Nick Provenzano:
Yeah. I don't know. It’s so bizarre. I’ve had the chance to go to Singapore and present with teachers over there. I’m going back to Iceland next month to work with teachers out there. I said this – I was interviewed by a college student in New Zealand on Wednesday afternoon and she asked a question about sort of like this, “What’s the value as a teacher of like connecting with other teachers?” And I said it’s actually culturally very interesting to talk to educators from vastly different cultures than American Midwest. That’s where I’m at, American Midwest is where I’m at. I’m in Michigan. To talk to teachers from like New Zealand and culturally how education is valued. Or East Asian countries, like, you know, when I was in Singapore. Or Nordic countries, in Iceland. It’s all very different culturally what the emphasis of education is and where it lies. and that influences what teachers do. That’s all part of that culture.
And so when I get to connect with teachers from Alabama and how education is culturally addressed down there. And how teachers are treated from a cultural standpoint in San Francisco, or down in Florida, or in Maine, in the UK, it’s all so very differentiator. and it’s funny because as teachers we all have the same goal no matter where we are. We’re trying to support these students. Part of this for me has always been – I don't know – trying to fill that bottomless pit of knowledge. I want to know. Maybe it’s my white whale, you know? I’m looking for the solution, the answer. It doesn't exist, I know that. But there’s more out there. And I think if you’re open to the fact that there’s more out there than what you do, you can be that real lifelong learner. I have so much to learn, still, and so much to hopefully bring to students that you have to be OK with saying I don't know, yet, and I want to learn and hopefully I’ll get there. Because as a teacher you can’t be there, I don't know how you can expect the students to be there.
Elana Leoni:
Want what you said I think culturally we – it might inhibit us in the beginning to reach out. And some people value connections and PLM, the personal learning networks, more than others. But I remember a moment I went to Doha and I was with Tom Whitby and Steven Anderson. And we sat in the circle with educators around the world and figured – You know, they were from Africa, they were from the Gaza Strip, they were from places that are completely different from, you know, the United States, where we were kind of representing the East Coast and West Coast. And we just talked about classroom management. And not just like specific classroom management from their area. It was the fundamental basics. and that was that moment where it didn’t really matter where you were, a lot of challenges have commonalities. That was such a lightbulb moment of if you feel like you’re going to connect with an educator on Twitter and they might not know, it turns out you have a foundation that you can help and grow with each other and adapt to your own environment.
Nick Provenzano:
Absolutely. And I think that’s a message I hope people can hear from this and what I share when I travel is how valuable that is. That’s just what we’re hoping to see with everyone and what you try to pass on to students on how valuable it is to recognize other cultures and how they do things and if we can all learn from that as sort of an approach to this sort of global attempt at learning, if we see more of our commonalities than our differences, things will be better.
Elana Leoni:
Awesome. Well, I know you’ve spent a lot of time with us so far, and this is a Frida and this is a long week for you. I really appreciate it. I want to go give you one rapid fire question.
Nick Provenzano:
Go for it.
Elana Leoni:
It’s helpful business it doesn't have to be related to education. the answer. I know I’m building this up and it’s actually a pretty generic question.
Nick Provenzano:
It’s OK.
Elana Leoni:
It’s all about inspiring. When we talk about mental health we need things that inspire us, daily. What in particular have you ran across that you were like this has me very excited? It could be a reading, it could be watching something. But what’s got you really inspired right now?
Nick Provenzano:
This is such a sappy answer. My wife inspires me every single day. She gets up and goes to work and runs the household and takes care of our son and her mom and I’m working and she’s working and sometimes she’s at home and [unintelligible 00:54:38]. And it’s just like she gets up every day and I’ve told her, I’m like, there are so many days that you’ve had I would be in the fetal position. I wouldn’t be doing anything. My wife is my inspiration. What I tell the kids sometimes in class is that, you know, the fact that you got up and you came here, today, that inspires me. Because it’s so easy for us just to stay in bed. And so you showed up today and I’m proud of you. Because it’s so easy not to. and as someone that deals with depression and anxiety, there are plenty of those days where I do not want to get out of bed. I do not want to face the day. And they do. And thanks middle schoolers that I see and some of the high schoolers that I see, they get up and they are here. And sometimes that’s as much as they can give but that’s such a huge success to me. So that inspires me.
So my wife will never believe it when I say it, but she is my inspiration on a daily basis. Other than that, “Ted Lasso.” “Ted Lasso” is my inspiration. Outside of that, it’s Ted. It’s Ted every single day. The best part of Friday is I get me some Ted today, so I’m really excited for some “Ted Lasso.” In terms of fiction, it’s Ted that gets me through those days. The end of Season 1, “The Hope That Kills,” hit very hard for me in terms of, it’s true. You’re sad, you’re depressed because you had so much hope. So as a teacher, I relate to that because sometimes you have the biggest hopes for lessons or students and it doesn't work out and it kills you even more because you were so hopeful. So those are my answers. One, sappy and realistic and other one is just it’s Friday and it’s “Ted Lasso” day. And I could it be happier.
Elana Leoni:
We just got to believe, right?
Nick Provenzano:
Got to believe.
Elana Leoni:
All right, Nick. That we can people get in touch with you if they want to reach out, say hey.
Nick Provenzano:
Yeah you can –
Elana Leoni:
Any [unintelligible 00:56:45] you want to share with the group, we can put it in our show notes.
Nick Provenzano:
Yeah. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter @ The Nerdy Teacher. So you can find me there. that’s where I’ll post and share different things. Thenerdyteacher.com is my website. Then if you go to Amazon and search Nicholas Provenzano you can find my four books and then my audio book, “Curious Children.” You can find that through audible. Any of those places. And don’t hesitate to reach out to my message. I work with companies, I work with schools. I work with just individual teachers that have questions. I don't discriminate. I love just a teacher has a question. For those of you there think, “Oh, my god, Provenzano is going to charge me to answer a question.” No. That’s not. I’m not that guy. I know there are people who are totally like that. I get it. That’s like their job. but if you’re like, “Hey, I have this question about using Makey Makey, like what do you think?” I’ll be like, “Ooh, let’s talk about Makey Makey.” I’ll be super excited. I am happy to talk with teachers about that type of stuff all the time. As long as you share I am totally on board. Don’t hesitate to reach out to me. I love connecting with new people. My brain is always thinking, “How can we get our kids to work together?” That’s generally what I’m thinking about when teachers reach out. Can I get them to work together? How cool would that be? Don’t hesitate to reach out. I’m always happy to connect and learn from you as much as I hopefully can give you some knowledge, as well.
Elana Leoni:
That’s awesome. And for everyone, we have show notes for each episode. This show notes will be at Leoniconsultinggroup.com/4. So all the links that Nick is talking about, the specific links to his book, some of the blog posts he mentioned, we’ll put them in the show notes for you to make it nice and easy. So, thank you, Nick, so much for sitting down with us, today, sharing your wisdom. Being OK with talking about stuff that’s just ridiculously hard. And right now it’s the hardest time for everybody, but especially educators. So I thank you for taking the time in your busy day.
Nick Provenzano:
And I thank you for giving me the opportunity to share and I miss your face, too. It’s been too long. All my love to you and all your friends and family out there on the West Coast, and, of course, I’m always available if you just want to send me a ping. I’m always happy to chat with you.
Elana Leoni:
All right. Thanks, everybody, for tuning in. And next couple of episodes we’ll be bringing in more educators, more ed tech marketers, more experts in the space that can help you build awareness and reach educators and communicate to them in an authentic way. Thanks, everyone.
Elana Leoni, Host
Elana Leoni has dedicated the majority of her career to improving K-12 education. Prior to founding LCG, she spent eight years leading the marketing and community strategy for the George Lucas Educational Foundation where she grew Edutopia’s social media presence exponentially to reach over 20 million education change-makers every month.
Nick Provenzano, Guest
Nicholas Provenzano is a Teacher and Makerspace Director at University Liggett School in Michigan. He is also an author, makerspace builder, international keynote speaker, and consultant. He writes on his website, TheNerdyTeacher.com, Edutopia.org, as well as many other prominent educational websites. He has been featured on CNN, Education Week, and other media outlets. He has been recognized as the Technology Teacher of the Year by MACUL and ISTE. Nicholas is a Google Certified Innovator, Sphero Hero, Microbit Champion, ASCD Emerging Leader, Microsoft Minecraft Mentor, Raspberry Pi Certified Educator, Adobe Education Leader, and a TEDEd Innovative Educator. His best-selling books, Your Starter Guide to Makerspaces, The Maker Mentality, and Beyond the Poster Board can be found on Amazon. Nicholas is sharing plenty of nerdy things on Twitter and Instagram at @TheNerdyTeacher.
About All Things Marketing and Education
What if marketing was judged solely by the level of value it brings to its audience? Welcome to All Things Marketing and Education, a podcast that lives at the intersection of marketing and you guessed it, education. Each week, Elana Leoni, CEO of Leoni Consulting Group, highlights innovative social media marketing, community-building, and content marketing strategies that can significantly increase brand awareness, engagement, and revenue.
Rate, Like, and Subscribe
Let us know what you thought about this episode by rating and reviewing our podcast. Click here, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with five stars, and select “Write a Review.” Then be sure to let us know what you loved most about the episode! Also, if you haven’t done so already, subscribe to the podcast to be notified when we have more content to share with you.